form in 20 minutes?

Postby psalchemist » Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:56 pm

Greetings Wushuer,

Thanks for clarifying the training techniques you have been exposed to and for explaining the reasonning behind them...

< It was a tool to keep the beginners from becoming aggressive during Push-Hands.....They tend to stay non-aggressive even when being tossed around because they're laughing. > - Wushuer

O.K. sure, I can relate to that idea, it makes sense to me. While you're laughing you cannot be cursing! Image

REVERSED BREATHING????? - UGGGGGHHHH!

Of course... I forgot, again, there must be a complete opposite situation to match. Taijiquan- The ultimate double meaning ! I'm just joking- I am enjoying the complexity of it all. Image

If anyone would like to explain what reversed breathing might refer to I would be grateful.

Thanks,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby Wushuer » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:27 pm

There's no mystery to reverse breathing, it is exactly as it sounds, breathing in reverse of the way you normally do (which is, of course, internal breathing, or should be).
The old "diametrically opposed" theory of TCC strikes again, anything you do will have it's opposite (Yin/Yang).
What I won't go into is WHY you do this. The action is simple, just breath in reverse, the application....
That's what I won't go into here. Mostly because I learned this as an advanced Wu style technique and I don't even know if the Yangs use it.
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Postby psalchemist » Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:02 pm

Greetings Wushuer,

You explained:

< ...breathing in reverse of the way you normally do(which is , of course, internal breathing, or should be) . > - Wushuer

Sorry, you've lost me there. All I can say to that is............External breathing............ Huh?

To grow a thought, one requires a seed of understanding. I usually sow a seed, water it with a little examination and then 'let it go'. Image

In this instance, I'm afraid I'm left seedless. Image

I have planted many ideas of late and my garden is becoming slightly overgrown anyway. Time to do some pruning and tending.

The concept of reverse breathing is probably just too advanced for my level of study.

Thanks anyway for trying though,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby Wushuer » Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:20 pm

No, not too advanced I wouldn't think as it's a very simple idea.
The reverse of how you breath if you breath internally is not "external breathing", rather reverse internal breathing.
It's still internal, just reversed. Very simple.
Think of the mechanics of breathing internally...
Now do it backwards. Reverse breathing.

I guess it can't hurt to say the basic concept goes to "opening/closing" and why you can't write "breath in on open, out on closed" and have that be a law that you can't or won't break.
If you read my post from today in "theory and principals", "full and empty", you'll get an idea of what I mean.
The two threads are on similar paths right now, I made a post there that will help you understand, I hope.
I just don't want to get into a big, Wu vs. Yang thing here. If the Yangs don't practice it, it's not going to be a problem for you anyway.
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Postby Michael » Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:09 am

Didn't find the original reference by Wushuer to "reverse breathing". But here how it goes.

When inhaling, the diaphram lowers but the chest expands. When exhaling, the "abdomen" expands and the chest falls. This is also known as "prebirth" or "Daoist" breathing. I breathe this way "naturally". Have found that about 2 out of ten breathe this way. It is higher among those who have trained in some type of martial arts. The opposite form is known as "buddhist breathing" or "natural breathing".

This is the common form of breathing in the Yang style as far as I know.
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Postby psalchemist » Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:38 am

Greetings Wushuer and Michael,

Wushuer,

Thank-You for attempting to convey the in's and out's of reverse breathing.

Michael,

Thank-you for supplying further explanations and commentary on this topic.

I think I have enough now to plant a seed.

Best regards,
Psalchemist. Image
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Postby Wushuer » Fri Sep 05, 2003 5:31 pm

Michael,
My post is the very last one on that board, should be easy to find. Reading it you may not understand, you have to go back and read at least the several posts before mine and how the people are talking about breathing as co-ordinated with opening and closing. They were putting forth, I believe but I may have it backwards because I don't think this way, that you should breath in on close and out on open or vice versa.
I disagree with that statement. It is not as cut and dried as that. There are times when this will not be so, especially if you have to suddenly change a close to an open.
Reverse breathing will also change the way you do the open and close breathing.
Again, I have not the words to convey this accurately. I learned how to do it, not talk about it and I'm not the worlds greatest author. In fact, if there's a place so far away from author as to be diametrically opposed, I'm in that place. So I have a hard time getting my point across on some of the more esoteric points. I could show you how if you were here, but I don't know how to say it so people will understand.
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Postby Wushuer » Fri Sep 05, 2003 5:43 pm

Psalchemist,
I hope I haven't done more harm than good. The concept is easy, the application is very difficult. I'm pretty sure I'm only seeing a very beginner kind of concept of this. While I have been told I do this fairly well, I'm surely no master at it.
If I were you, I would forget about it for now. The way Michael described it is close, but there are, of course, finer points to the concept.
You could do some damage if you do this wrong, so before you begin to train this method ask your YCF instructor if it's even something for you to worry about. I have never heard it mentioned either here on this website or in my YCF classes, so I don't know if the Yangs even use the concept.
Again, I learned this at the hands a trained Wu family disciple, then received more advanced training by Sifu Eddie Wu during a seminar on chi kung. After all that, I'm still a bit leary of reverse breathing.
The funny thing is, this is how I breathed before I trained TCC, then had internal/abdominal breathing trained into me for about a decade, then was told to relearn the correct method of reverse breathing. To go back to "reverse" breathing is no longer natural for me, I have to work at it.
Anyway, I definitely don't recommend using this technique until you can get some proper training on it.
Enough about this on this string, it is very off topic. Sorry everyone.
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Postby Michael » Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:34 am

Wushuer,

Know what you are talking about when speaking about "opening" and "closing" and breath....and trying to talk about it. I personally don't see any real "danger" in "reverse" breathing but I am only me, I don't have any "answers". Every "answer" I find just gives me more questions.
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Postby DavidJ » Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:38 pm

Hi All,

In terms of going slower or faster, as the old beatnik expression goes, "Leave us not go ape!"

The I Ching places great value on modesty. Make that which is too large smaller, make that which is too small larger. In this view Louis' story about appropriateness and Steve addressing moderation are the same thing.

The key to it is in the last line of the Essential that Psalchemist quoted. If you think about it any pay attention you may find the right balance. Listen to your body.

I was told one or two other things about speed but I think they will have to wait awhile.

Regards,

David J

[This message has been edited by DavidJ (edited 09-08-2003).]
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Postby César » Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:12 pm

Greetings!

In the Newsletter of the International Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan Association (N° 10), Master Yang ZhenDuo says:
"...Doing the form one time commonly takes about 25 minutes now. In the past, we took 45 minutes to do the form three times in a row session. The transitional time between moves was longer, the postures were lower, and the moves were slower..."
I hope this will be useful to everyone.

Take Care

César
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Postby psalchemist » Sat Nov 08, 2003 9:16 pm

Good'ay Cesar,

Conscientious of you to report the discovery of that documentation.

Thanks for the official confirmation.

Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby Audi » Sat Nov 08, 2003 9:17 pm

Hi César,

Thanks for sharing this. I thought I had heard something like this somewhere, but could not recall where.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby dorshugla » Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:03 pm

20 minutes is just a warm-up.

EXAMPLE ONLY:
Actual practice time is as follows:
1. Warm-up (10-15 minutes)
2. Zhanzhaung (30-60 minutes)
3. Individual posture training (30-60 minutes
4. Actual form (3x long form; 6x "short" form
60-90 minutes

Total time: minimum time -1hr 20min
maximum time: 3hrs 30 min or so

When you practice young and gong is consistent, then as you get older it is feasible that a shorter timeframe will prevail.
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Postby JerryKarin » Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:41 pm

What Yang Zhenduo meant was they used to take 45 minutes for 1 rep, and repeated that 3 times. Nowadays mostly 25 - 30 minutes per rep. Yang Jun shows some warmups but doesn't make much fuss about them. Many practitioners just regard the first rep as their warmup. Historically the Yangs have tended toward lots of slow reps to develop gongfu. Yang Zhenji has an article in which he says very plainly that gongfu is generally developed most by form practice, not push hands.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 11-21-2003).]
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