Small frame/fast form

[The Wandering Brit]

I was fortunate to be able to attend a demonstration with Tian Yin Jia this week
(son of Tian Zao Lin, who was adopted son of Yang Jian Hou) who together with his son Tian Bing Yuan and his primary Tudi were doing a series of seminars in the UK.

The demo included sword, sabre, push hands, the form done large frame and medium frame, but two things really intrigued me.

The first was when Tian Yin Jia himself (his son and his Tudi did all the other demos) demonstrated small frame. He said (through an interpretor)that as well as being the most difficult by far, it was also the original version of the Yangs' form...he demonstrated a section of it and it was incredibly fast and very Shaolin in appearance (to my inexperienced eyes anyway). He described it as both soft and hard, with all the energy coming from internal circles.

When questioned he said there were leaps and kicks in the form also. It was also said that he was possibly the only person alive who truly knew it.

The other intriguing thing was the 'eight brocade' warm-up that was demonstrated -this was described as a preparation for Fa Jing and was a series of explosive martial exercises.

I had never heard of this before and wondered if anyone knew anything more. I was also fascinated by the small frame and would love to find out more about it. The whole experience was mesmerising.

There is an interview here...

http://www.art-of-energetics.com/frameset.htm

[Marc Heyvaert]

Hi WB,

Well, from what I understand there is a lot of controversy about the small fast form. Not many teach it and even then the question remains if it is authentic and when and where and by whom it was added to the curriculum.

The same applies to the medium frame/form.

The fact that people continue bickering amongst themselves (style : "what you call medium(or small) frame is crap and my teacher is the only one with the true transmission) surely doesn't help the cause. The fact that masters who claim to have these forms hardly teach them to anyone, doesn't either. Why all the secrecy, hé?

I'm glad that you could attend the demo's/seminars and that ypu liked them. I live in Belgium, which is not to far away, and I thought a lot about coming over and attend, but I couldn't make it in the end.

Take care

Marc

[Marc Heyvaert]

Hello again,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The Wandering Brit:
<B>
The other intriguing thing was the 'eight brocade' warm-up that was demonstrated -this was described as a preparation for Fa Jing and was a series of explosive martial exercises.

I had never heard of this before and wondered if anyone knew anything more.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose this wasn't the 'usual' eight brocades qigong series of exercises then?

Marc

[The Wandering Brit]

Hi mark,

It was said that part of the reason Tian had come to the UK was to open up and pass the knowledge on; his son allowed his demonstration of medium frame (which was also a sight to behold) to be filmed, and Tian allowed himself to be framed doing small frame.

As to the veracity of all the claims- I have no idea whatsoever!

I have not seen the 'standard' eight brocade - parts of what was shown last night were explosive pushes out to the side, I guess not disimilar to the strike after 'step back and ride tiger', accompanied with aloud 'Ha!' each time.

Does that sound like what you are familiar with?

Cheers,

WB

[tai1chi]

Hi WB,

you wrote:

"The first was when Tian Yin Jia himself [...] demonstrated small frame. He said (through an interpretor)that as well as being the most difficult by far, it was also the original version of the Yangs' form... he demonstrated a section of it and it was incredibly fast and very Shaolin in appearance [...]. He described it as both soft and hard, with all the energy coming from internal circles."

Did Tian do the jumping parts too? Wow. Anyway, are you sure that he described the form "as both soft and hard"? It's been written extensively that the jumps and explosive movements were removed as part of the standardization.

regards,
Steve James

[The Wandering Brit]

He didn't do the jumping parts or the kicks, he onld did part of the form, but when questioned he clearly said that leaps and kicks did feature in it.

And Tian(via the translator) definitely said it was a mix of soft and hard. Also, that it was similar to some other boxing.

[Marc Heyvaert]

Hello,

This is one of the articles that floats around on the web and that could be of some interest regarding this matter

http://users2.ev1.net/~stma/QuanYou.html

Marc

[yangchengfu04]

Actually, I was at the Gin Soon Chu birthday banquet last night (he turned 72), and I saw this form performed; as well as many others. At least I'm fairly sure it was the form you are speaking about. As far as I know, I've never seen them teach it to anyone while I've been there, but the nephew did the performance. It was quite explosive, fast, had leaps, stomps, and multiple kicks.

This form looked awesome!!

[Yury Snisarenko]

What would be really interesting to know is whether they mentioned/use chansi jin (silk reeling jin) or not.

Internal circles… hmm… it's intriguing.

[Shi Tianren]

It is almost common knowledge that apart from the Traditional form, Yang Chengfu taught Taiji Long Fist as well. Yang Shaozhong (Yang Sau Chung, Yang Chengfu's eldest son) had taught the form as well. But it was not taught to just everyone you had to be a close disciple to learn it.

What I find interesting is that Yang Zhenduo seems to deny that there was ever such a form taught by his family.

Gin Soon Chu would know Taiji Chang Quan (Long Fist) because he was a close disciple of Yang Shaozhong. That's probably what you had seen yangchengfu04.

Dong Yingjie had learned it has but he had also learned the Wu/Hao style has well, so he combined both Taiji Long Fist with Wu/hao Fast form.

I wonder why Yang Zhenduo had not learned all his father's forms, does his other brothers know it? Perhaps Yang Zhenji?

[yangchengfu04]

I could be wrong, and I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, but it seems many people seem to forget about the Yeung Sau Chung lineage. You don't hear it even mentioned except from their students and disciples. There are staff forms and exercises, saber, sword, two-man set, fast form, dynamic push hands, walking, and others that I haven't seen yet.

[This message has been edited by yangchengfu04 (edited 01-26-2005).]

[The Wandering Brit]

That is also the lineage I am learning, though on Ip Tai Tak's side.

[tai1chi]

Hi,

"it seems many people seem to forget about the Yeung Sau Chung lineage. You don't hear it even mentioned except for from their students and disciples."

I think that this depends on who'd on the list at the time. The Sau Chung lineage has been mentioned before; but, often, it comes in the form of a question why they practice something that aren't seen in the Chengfu lineage. This often results in a controversy about who had the "full transmission" or who didn't and why. I'm sure that you've heard some of these stories.

I think Yang Jun and Yang Zhenduo want to promote harmony among the various tcc lineages and in the tcc world. So, maybe that's why some of the debates have been avoided. The Tians are very new to the scene, here. If they have been getting a lot of attention, then it's mostly because of that --since none of their long-time students post here (afaik).

But, there are practitioners from other lineages (like Polaris and Wushuer who practice/d Wu style (or North American Wu style). So, there may be more mentions of that style.

regards,
Steve James

[oldyangtaijiquan]

It would be interesting to see the demonstrations of Tian Yin Jia to coment them.

However, the idea that the "Large frame" was developed (only) by YCF is missleading. YCF was known for his "Large frame" but he didn't developed it. The "Large frame" was developed inside the Yang family (some say that also YLC made it) for the "public" teaching purposes. YCF aslo practiced the his "small/fast frame". We must not forget that also Yang Shao Hou teached the "Large frame" (not only YCF!) to the public!

There are various advanced/fast Yang forms, but the main versions are:
-> Yang Shao Hou's "Small frame" Form (Advanced Combat Set)
-> Yang Cheng Fu's "Long Boxing" Form (Taiji Long Boxing)
The forms are similar and are based on the "Large frame" and contains elements of the "Old frame" (Yang Lu Chan's form). The two forms were developed for the advanced students.

Tian Zhao Lin learned the "Small frame" from Yang Shao Hou. We could be very gratefull to "Chen Kung" for his "thief", because his book Taijiquan Sword Sabre Staff and Dispersing-Hands Combined is a masterpiece. Maybe if "Chen Kung" hadn't published that book many things about Taijiquan were be lost.

Today the "Small frame" is not present in the Yang family because it was omited by YCF in his teaching after the 1925. Yang Sau Chung was the only "inside" family disciple of YCF, so he was the only son of YCF that learned all the curriculum!

My opinion is that the "Small frame" is a personal (energetic) interpretation of the Taijiquan, so the small forms differ so from master to master.

[Bamenwubu]

I am relatively new here, I've been kind of "lurking" since I joined the association, popping in from time to time to read some of the more interesting posts and kind of getting familiar with the recurring characters.
This thread has lead me to finaly post and ask two questions of you all that may help shed some light on this subject of small frame, fast forms and how the fit into things.
I would like everyone who wishes to participate in my poll to first consider the questions carefully, read any supporting documentation you desire, then consider again, ponder what you are going to say carefully, maybe even write it out in a word processing program before you post it then reread it, think about it again, then answer:
What is small frame and why is it different than large or medium frame?
What is a fast form and why is it different from a slow or medium paced form?

I am ever curious and will patiently await your answers.