Punch Downward to Chop with Fist

Punch Downward to Chop with Fist

Postby Audi » Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:51 am

Greetings all,

I have become curious how exactly I should be performing the transition between Punch Downward and Chop with Fist. These are the moves that directly follow the Brush Right Knee that follows the kicks in the second paragraph.

I am really interested in Yang Zhenduo's and Yang Jun's form, but do not necessarily want to limit any possible responses or discussion to their version.

So far, I have performed the transition by having the feeling of leaving my right fist in place and allowing my waist to "unscrew" it into position in front of my abdomen, with my right elbow leading and without my fist crossing my center line. Having recently received a huge number of form corrections, I now wonder whether my movements have left my right arm too dead or too linear.

I have now begun to add more of an elbow bend to the pulling motion of my right arm, so that the tip of my right elbow ends its rearward motion in line with my right side seam and my right fists passes to the right of my center line.

If one of the meanings of this transition is an elbow strike to an opponent attacking from the rear, this motion seems to make more sense. More importantly, my recent change seems to preserve the circularity necessary to prepare for the backfist. Is this correct?
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Postby JerryKarin » Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:17 pm

With the waist turn, and the turning in of the left toe, the right fist turns to face palm down. If you look at the arm it is essentially doing a ward off like in lower arms in da hu shi. In addition the two arms are separating, left doing peng upward and right pressing down. This has a bit of the flavor of bai he liang chi.

In launching the backfist consider how you might move the handle of a saber to control it as it moved through the area traversed by the right forearm in this backfist, the right elbow here like the the handle of the saber.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 12-31-2004).]
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Postby Audi » Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:43 pm

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for your response.

I have a question about how you see the arms as separating. Your comment about Bai he liang chi, In the Chop with Fist earlier in the form, the right arm is already somewhat high and to the rear. My feeling of the arm movement is that they display the physics of corresponding cars on a ferris wheel. While there is some feel of pushing down with the right palm, there is also a feel of pushing across the abdomen from right to left as the ferris wheel car hits the bottom of its arc and the left hand reaches the apex of its arc.

In the Chop with Fist that is the subject of my question, the right arm starts from a lower position relative to the angle of the torso, and this changes how the arms must prepare. In your description, does the right fist retain a feeling of pushing from right to left across the abdomen, after pushing down?

If I can continue with my ferris wheel analogy, I have thought that the right arm begins its journey more or less in the center, relative to the torso (but not relative to the ground). From there, it has to travel backward to the edge of the circle, relative to the torso. Relative to the ground, I would guess that it must rise some in order to have room to press back down. Once the arms reach the same height, they would then duplicate the same movements as in the earlier Chop with Fist.

Your idea about saber imagery is an interesting one. I think I will have to play with that a little bit. Do you think the same thing applies for the forward movement of the right arm in Ban Lan Chui (Deflect Downward Parry and Punch), or would you think that the greater circularity in this posture makes it inappropriate? Perhaps, the first posture has the flavor of the Saber Form kan3 (chopping?) movement in Liang kai zhang and the second has the flavor of the saber slicing movement at the end of Yu nv chuan suo. (By the way, do you know the Chinese name for this slicing movement?)

[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 01-01-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 01-01-2005).]
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Postby JerryKarin » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:12 pm

The way I see it the right fist comes to a position near the center of the abdomen at the exact same moment the left foot finishes turning in, and the waist finishes its turn. The right arm does not really move by itself; the movement of the waist turns and carries the right fist to its position in front of the abdomen. When you start out from the punch down the torso is square to the direction you are punching and the right fist is actually only a few inches below your waist. As you turn a very slight adjustment of the angle of the right elbow can handle changes to the height of the fist. Or, put another way, sinking your right elbow can raise your right fist.
In the first part of this I would say the right fist describes a small arc as it goes from punching down to pressing down in front of the abdomen. The slight movement of the right fist pressing down has to be coordinated with the left going upward.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 01-01-2005).]
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Postby JerryKarin » Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:26 pm

I'm sure, Audi, like every other student of the double and single blade practice that you've noticed from sabre and sword training that there are some nice little tricks of leverage and whatnot that you can use to cause the tip to accelerate at the end of the stroke. The swords add one more segment to the chain of upper arm, forearm, wrist and hand. I was thinking you could use the same techniques on the last segment of your arm, ie elbow to hand. It has to be handled with care so as not to create forces which would snap your arm itself...
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