Combat value of push-hand

Postby bamboo leaf » Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:40 am

(their constant juggernaughting-in, I will have little change to push them out of the competition ring.)

your thoughts have lots of good examples my replies are not directed at you. Image


The idea of pushing them out, try leading or allowing them to fall out. By changing this you will understand what empty and full mean. I have pushed with people who compete, the competition aspects seem to teach a very bad set of skills, not really taiji skills. Their practice completely misses the point of push hands it will not enhance their taiji nor will it allow them to understand how it is to be used as a martial art.

FWIW I do not engage in such competitions (nothing of value for me) but have pushed with others who have won them. On one level they can feel and understand what is happning to them as they get tossed out by their own actions, but they seem to be locked into the what works in competiton with this mindset ist rally not possible to change much. to each his own Image


[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 06-07-2005).]

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 06-07-2005).]
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Postby cheefatt taichi » Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:13 am

Hi Bambooleaf,

[The idea of pushing them out, try leading or allowing them to fall out. By changing this you will understand what empty and full mean.]
You are right, this was exactly what I did. During my push hands with them, I insisted upon myself to follow strictly to taiji principles instead of get pulled into the tournament way of pushing to win at all cost. Many times they overextended and off-balance themselves. I also noticed after after a few minutes of push hands, they are breathing very heavily signifying that a lot of physical strengths were used.

[the competition aspects seem to teach a very bad set of skills, not really taiji skills. Their practice completely misses the point of push hands it will not enhance their taiji nor will it allow them to understand how it is to be used as a martial art].
This is true too. I cannot stop to wonder if this is the way taiji push hand shld be (tournament way), what chance we will have if faced with sumo wrestlers or pro-wrestlers.

[On one level they can feel and understand what is happning to them as they get tossed out by their own actions, but they seem to be locked into the what works in competiton with this mindset ist rally not possible to change much]
I noticed this too. When I was pushing with one of them who used Chen style and yiquan, he was thrown many times many feet away and while we chat after that. He still insisted that traditional taiji push hand is of little practicle use especially in tournament. Nevertheless, these people are all friendly people true to taiji spirit. They have different interest in taiji aka winning competitions as compared to us who want to stick to original taiji.

Take care friends.
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Postby Yuri Snisarenko » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:32 am

Greetings BL, cheefatt

BL,
your thoughts and experience of inner aspects of taiji combat are very interesting, but I've heard different opinions with wide range of examples of subtle inner applications and a few of them are in somewhat contradiction with yours (Or maybe it's just my limited understanding). May I ask you a question, have you ever pushed with a person who can use short jin, i.e. he slowly touches you, and then immediately either your bone or whole body feels the impact. What do you think, is it possible to reflect such an attack back in the manner as you described above?

Cheefatt and others,
I would appreciate your answer as well.
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Postby cheefatt taichi » Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:02 am

Hi Yuri & others,

Very interesting point. I use short jin a lot in my push hands and this far, I have not met a person who can smoothly return the jin as in `chieh jin' described in taiji classic. I read the book `Steal My Art' by C.C.Liang one of Cheng Man Ching inner disciple and he admitted that neither he nor CMC has mastered this skill. My sifu who is inner student of Tung, Huling couldn't do it too though he taught me how technically and mentally. Personally, I am still practising hard to get it. I heard talks amongst Huang Hsin Hsian (CMC inner student) students that Huang has it but the late Huang has passed away and my sifu has had pushed with Huang's direct students and he said none can do it. So, I don't know. It would be a blessing if I can meet someone who possess this skill.

As for the use of short jin, I would say 90% of the time the person I used it on will be pushed away. The 10% unsuccessful fajin is time when my yi is less focus and has many other things in my head until the fajing become more physical then internal. Shortjin executed with physical power is easy to neutralize but shortjin from internal strength is hard to avoid.
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Postby bamboo leaf » Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:02 pm

(May I ask you a question, have you ever pushed with a person who can use short jin, i.e. he slowly touches you, and then immediately either your bone or whole body feels the impact. What do you think, is it possible to reflect such an attack back in the manner as you described above?)


as with many things it¡¯s a matter of level. My own teacher can touch another¡¯s hand laid on someone¡¯s body and push them back with his small finger pressed against the hand. The person whose hand is touched feels nothing. The person who is pushed feels like the small finger is poking through the hand.

At his level its not possible to do what I mentioned, but he can.

The basic point is to feel the intent and either empty it or return it (he starts late but arrives first) for most they are still at the point feeling a pressure on the body before reaction or acting. This is really to slow but is a necessary starting point to come from.
If you can feel the mind then your actions can be in time with the other and still be before it.

(Shortjin executed with physical power is easy to neutralize but shortjin from internal strength is hard to avoid.)

you don¡¯t need to avoid it, just be able to channel and lead it.

FWIW these are just expressions of an understanding, based on my own experiences not written as an absolute or correct way. Its how I understand things at this time in my own practice. Others may find differences or have a better way of writing it.

david Image
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Postby Anderzander » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cheefatt taichi:
I heard talks amongst Huang Hsin Hsian (CMC inner student) students that Huang has it but the late Huang has passed away and my sifu has had pushed with Huang's direct students and he said none can do it. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've met students of Huang's who could do it. Who did he push with?

Stephen
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Postby Kalamondin » Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:18 am

Hi CFTC and others,

Sorry to intrude, but can someone tell me what `chieh jin' is? I looked through my copies of the classics but didn't see those words (mine are all translated into English). How does it work? (Not that I could do it yet--just curious.)

Thank you,
Kal
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Postby cheefatt taichi » Thu Jun 09, 2005 3:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anderzander:
<B> I've met students of Huang's who could do it. Who did he push with?

Stephen</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Anderzander,

I'm not sure who he pushed with but definitely not Huang's son in law who is the `keeper' of Huang style taiji. Can you describe how is it feels like?
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Postby Yuri Snisarenko » Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kalamondin:
<B>Hi CFTC and others,

Sorry to intrude, but can someone tell me what `chieh jin' is?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chieh in Wade-Giles romanization is JIE in pinyin (we discussed jiejin some months ago) . AFAIK pinyin is much more used in the world than WG.
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Postby cheefatt taichi » Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:57 am

Hi Yuri,

`Chiehjin' is a skill in taiji where force is returns to the opponent at almost the same time. The effect is just like when you exert force against a wall and you will find the force bounces back almost simultaneuosly. My spelling could be wrong, it could be jiejin but they are refering to the same thing. This skill is said to be the most difficult to master by Cheng Man Cheng.
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Postby Yuri Snisarenko » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:44 am

Hi Cheefatt taichi,

Your spelling is absolutely ok, I am (and I suppose Kalamondin too) just used to pinyin system a bit more. Thank you for sharing your thoughts about jiejin, which is higher than my level even in its simplest form. Therefore personally I can say nothing about the possibility to use this kind of jin against short jin. However, as many, I am interested in it because I know a couple of very good taiji enthusiasts from another style who have been training short jin as one of the basic/fundamental jins. You may imagine what opponents they are in tuishou!

Reading the excellent book The Taijiquan Classics translated by Barbara Davis I found some lines of CWM's commentaries consonant to what we are discussing here, so I've decided to share them with all of you:

<<If one wishes to avoid the problem of double-weightedness, one must know yin and yang. Yin and yang are namely empty and full. If one feels the slightest bit double-weighted, one must at ones sink to one side. The empty place is yin, the full place is yang. Although one /actually "it" may stand here/ divides into yin and yang, one still does not abandon sticking and connecting; therefore one is able to stick and to yield. As for "yin does not separate from yang, yang does not seoarate from yin", if the opponent is full, I am empty. He empties, and I change to become full. Therefore yin changes to yang, yang changes to yin. "Yin and yang complete each other." The foundation for this is to "not be fixed (ding) in one's shape (xing)." / or 'not fixed shape' / This is done by means of observing the direction of the opponent's intention, and then changing. If one can follow the opponent's intention, and respond to empty and full, one will not miss by the slightest bit.>>

Here is the original text in GB:

ÈôÓû±ÜË«ÖØÖ®²¡£¬ÐëÖªÒõÑô¡£ÒõÑô¼´ÐéʵҲ¡£ÉÔ¾õË«ÖØ£¬¼´ËÙÆ«³Á¡£Ð鴦ΪÒõ£¬Êµ´¦ÎªÑô£¬Ëä·ÖÒõÑô£¬¶øÈÔð¤Á¬²»ÍÑ£¬¹ÊÄÜð¤ÄÜ×ß¡£Òõ²»ÀëÑô£¬Ñô²»ÀëÒõÕߣ¬±ËʵÎÒÐ飬±ËÐéÎÒÓÖ±äΪʵ£¬¹ÊÒõ±äΪÑô£¬Ñô±ä ΪÒõ£¬ÒõÑôÏà¼Ã£¬±¾ÎÞ¶¨ÐΣ¬½ÔÊӱ˷½Ö®Òâ¶ø±ä¶ú¡£ÈçÄÜËæ±ËÖ®Ò⣬¶øÐéʵӦ¸¶£¬ºÁÀ岻ˬ£¬ÊÇÕæ¿Éν֮¶®¾¢ÒÓ¡£


Take care,
Yuri



[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 06-09-2005).]
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Postby Audi » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:28 pm

Greetings all:

FYI, I believe the Jie Jin/Chieh Chin under discuss here is usually translated as “Intercepting Energy” and was discussed previously to a small degree on this thread.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby Kalamondin » Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:23 pm

Ah, thanks Audi!
Kal
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