Split, Lead & Follow

Split, Lead & Follow

Postby Subitai » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:10 pm

Taiji Push Hand examples of Split, Lead & Follow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrKAMa2oxKc

"O"
http://taichi-ledyardct.webs.com/

"O" Some believe that you need to make another human being tap out to be a valid art. But I am constantly reminding them that I only have to defend myself and keep you from hurting me in order to Win."
Subitai
 
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Re: Split, Lead & Follow

Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:35 pm

Subitai,
Ah, cool. Video links!
I was still searching for some when I saw this post.
I see nothing radically different in this pushing hands video than what we do in Traditional Yang Family TCC.
There is a point in the pushing hands video where the text says something along the lines of "this motion is particular to our Tai Chi", however I have used that same motion in every form of Tai Chi Chuan I have ever trained.
Perhaps they meant what they call the motion is particular to their practice...?
Otherwise, this is very standard tui shou practice.
That's good stuff though!
Believe me, "standard", at least the way I use the word, is one of the highest possible compliment I can give!
I've see a lot of "non standard" pushing hands.
I think you can follow along from there as to what I mean by that...
The Sun style form video also shows very good stuff.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Tai Chi and having many discussions with you while I learn more about this branch of the art.
Do you also train the Northern Shaolin arts in your school? Xingyi?

Bob
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Re: Split, Lead & Follow

Postby Subitai » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:57 pm

Again...you are kind my friend, Cheers!

I guess what I meant by saying that is...in our form, after ward off, roll back and press...we kind of release the right hand and do a side to side shaving or diverting motion...just prior to double hands again rolling back and ending with push.

Mabe it's just me but most of the time when I watch people do Yang Forms...right after press, they immediately roll back without the side to side motion 1st.

I'm not saying it's better or worse in any regard...just a different little quirk that we do.

P.S. I learned some Bak Sil Lum...but mostly i'm one of the keepers of the southern gates :) meaning I was 1st a Hung Kyun Instructor before I ever fell in love with Tai chi.

Sun style...kind of forces you to learn all three... Sun Taiji, Sun Bagua and Xing Yi. But to be honest, that's allot on an already full plate...if you get my meaning.

I have mostly "Given Back" the xing yi and just do the Taiji and the Bagua. My emphasis has always been kinda to the martial side however. As my sifu would always tease me and say perhaps that will go away after i'm in my 50's. But heck, I'm still in my 40's!! haha.
http://taichi-ledyardct.webs.com/

"O" Some believe that you need to make another human being tap out to be a valid art. But I am constantly reminding them that I only have to defend myself and keep you from hurting me in order to Win."
Subitai
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:53 am
Location: Southeastern, CT. USA

Re: Split, Lead & Follow

Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:19 pm

That "side to side" movement is most prevalent in our transition to Single Whip, which comes right after "Grasp the Bird's Tail". We do not do it after Press, we go directly to Push, then we do this on the way to Single Whip.
The "split" technique mentioned along with it is found in the TYFTCC posture, "Apparent Close Up", where it also leads through Press to a Push technique.
So the methods and techniques are all there in both forms, just in a slightly different sequence.
I'm curious to see the sequence of posture movements as they are performed in your form now that I've seen the technique in application.


Bob
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Re: Split, Lead & Follow

Postby Bob Ashmore » Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:22 pm

As for your Sifu's teasing that the desire to continue to learn the martial art will go away when you're in your 50's...
That hasn't happened to me.
I'm in my 50's and I am more eager than ever to keep learning the martial art of TCC.
Not to "win" any fights in the traditional sense, rather to "win" the way you mention in your quote about not having to harm someone to "win" a fight.
Which is EXACTLY what I've always considered to be the pinnacle of using "martial arts".
I have never agreed with the widely held idea that in order to "win" a fight you have to pound your opponent to the point where they can no longer respond in any way. If someone is so stubborn that they keep getting back up and attacking you no matter how many times you show them they can't harm you then I can see where things may have to escalate to that level but fortunately that's never happened to me.
My experience has been that shutting down an opponent only to the point where they can no longer harm you, without harming them, "wins" a fight nearly every time.
Most of the very few fights I've been in since I actually began to understand how TCC works have ended with me holding an opponent in a joint lock of some kind, incapacitating them with pain but not doing much if any actual damage, and calmly and clearly explaining to them that this whole thing will end now if they will just choose to get up and walk away when I let them go.
Usually once an opponent realizes he's not going to "win" the fight that he started, that his actual martial skill does not match what is in his imagination or that his mouth said it was, and that you have consciously chosen up to now not to do them any real harm but that that option is quickly going away if they continue to be aggressive, they will almost always choose the option to walk away when you give it to them.
Now, I'm not bragging in any way. I'm hardly Bruce Lee Jr. I could count the number of "fights" I've been in over the last 27 years on the fingers of one hand and still have enough left to make sword fingers.
I'm not really very good at TCC, to be completely honest. In fact I'm just barely adequate. I've simply been fortunate in that all but that one previously mentioned opponent hadn't had any kind of martial arts training at all. So my lowly skills were, fortunately, enough to defend myself against their total lack of training and, also fortunately, no one had to get hurt in order to do so.
That, to my way of thinking, is the best possible outcome to any "fight".

Bob
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Re: Split, Lead & Follow

Postby Subitai » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:18 pm

Awesome Bob!

It's nice to see like-minded people about the application of Tai Chi.

When I 1st moved back to the east coast here (in Southeastern, CT)...honestly compared to the San Fran bay area it was mostly a bunch of "Fuddy - Duddies" (haha 1st attempt at spelling that).

Anyway, I encountered a group that runs the local World tai chi day events and so they asked me to join. Right away because most of them were old dudes...i had heard some rumblings of: "He's too young" and "He focuses on the martial aspects of Tai chi" or "we concentrate on the health aspects & qi gong". I even had a lady come up to me and say...I thought Tai chi was for health only"?

My response: Absolutely it can be but that's not all it is...the word "chuan" (as in fist) for example denotes a martial skill. I say train completely with all things possible and the health is also a convenient side effect.
http://taichi-ledyardct.webs.com/

"O" Some believe that you need to make another human being tap out to be a valid art. But I am constantly reminding them that I only have to defend myself and keep you from hurting me in order to Win."
Subitai
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:53 am
Location: Southeastern, CT. USA

Re: Split, Lead & Follow

Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:02 pm

I can't agree with you more.
I too have been hit with the question/statement "I thought Tai Chi was only for the health?/!" too many times to count.
My response to either is the same though: "I don't know what "Tai Chi" is, I only know what Tai Chi Chuan is. Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art that also happens to be able to help you achieve and maintain a healthy body if you do it correctly. You'll have to find someone who practices "Tai Chi" in order to find out what it's about, I don't practice or teach that."
The looks I get when I say that! I should take pictures and make a book. It would be hilarious.
Well...
To me.

Bob
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