Brennan's translation of Chen Yanlin

Brennan's translation of Chen Yanlin

Postby DPasek » Wed May 08, 2013 1:54 pm

In Brennan’s translation of AN OUTLINE OF TAIJI THEORY by Chen Yanlin, there is the following:
http://brennantranslation.wordpress.com ... ji-theory/

心會論
ON MENTALLY UNDERSTANDING
腰脊為第一之主宰。喉頭為第二之主宰。心地為第三之主宰。
丹田為第一之賓輔。指掌為第二之賓輔。足掌為第三之賓輔。
The lower back is first to command, the throat second to command, solar plexus third to command.
The elixir field is first to obey, palms second to obey, the soles of the feet third to obey.


While some of this may be understandable to me, I have not come across many references to the throat or solar plexus in either personal instructions or reading. I was wondering if someone would be able to elaborate on what is being discussed here.

To me, the ‘obeying’ is equivalent to receiving (absorbing energy) whereas ‘commanding’ would be equivalent to issuing (projecting energy). Then, the dantien initiating receiving energy would make sense to me, followed by the palms (or more precisely, the point of contact with an opponent), and then transmitted through the linkages (‘pearl bends' or joints) of the body to the soles of the feet (the ‘root of the body’, assuming that you are standing). The ‘lower back’ (if equivalent to the mingmen) would also make sense to me as being the first to ‘command’, but I have no speculation on how the throat or solar plexus would be involved in issuing.

Am I misinterpreting this? How are the throat and solar plexus involved in Taijiquan theory? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Dan
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Re: Brennan's translation of Chen Yanlin

Postby Louis Swaim » Wed May 08, 2013 3:01 pm

Greetings Dan,

I'm just getting ready to leave for work, but I thought I'd post a link to a thread from some years back in which this strange text came up. The Xin Hui Lun 心會論 is supposedly from the Song family tradition, but some researchers question whether there is a clear provenance, or how closely it may be associated with taijiquan. Here's the thread, titled "Monkey Head?": viewtopic.php?f=4&t=471&hilit=throat

Have a look, and maybe we can discuss further.

Take care,
Louis
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Re: Brennan's translation of Chen Yanlin

Postby DPasek » Wed May 08, 2013 4:18 pm

Thanks Louis,

The ‘monkey head’ explanation really helps and would fit much better with my understanding of Taijiquan than the ‘throat’ translation would. This would especially be true for me if the ‘monkey head’ posture ties in with the xuling dingjin concept that was discussed recently: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2043&start=15

JerryKarin wrote:Just to tease it out a little, the text suggests 3 'commanders' and 3 'followers' (literally 'guests and supporters'). The 3 commanders are: 1 waist and spine, 2 monkey head/throat, 3 xin1 di4 'heart/mind ground'. (some confusion about whether it is xindi or dixin).
The 3 followers are 1 dantian, 2 palms, 3 soles of the feet.

The ‘solar plexus’ (‘heart/mind ground’?) part still does not seem to fit my understanding of this art, but this part of the writing/translating still seems to be in doubt. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Note: I have great admiration for everyone who tackles the extremely difficult task of translating Chinese Taijiquan texts!]

Dan
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Re: Brennan's translation of Chen Yanlin

Postby DPasek » Thu May 09, 2013 2:40 pm

Louis,

The last part of the puzzle, the ‘dixin’ reference, would make the most sense to me if it was somehow connected to how we interact (or align with) with the ‘earth’s core’ through how we generate energy (force) from our interaction with the ground (through the feet).

If the ‘commander’ or ‘leader’ (etc) relates to the issuing (projection) of energy [rather than receiving or absorbing energy from the opponent], then it would make sense to me that this would be initiated in the lower back (the mingmen), be transmitted through the spinal structure to the crown of the head, and that this structure would then transmit the force from the connection of the feet to the ground (through the legs and directed by the waist) and then to the opponent.

Could this be consistent with the Chinese writing that we have been discussing?

Dan
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Re: Brennan's translation of Chen Yanlin

Postby yslim » Sun May 12, 2013 8:26 am

DPasek wrote:In Brennan’s translation of AN OUTLINE OF TAIJI THEORY by Chen Yanlin, there is the following:
http://brennantranslation.wordpress.com ... ji-theory/

心會論
ON MENTALLY UNDERSTANDING
腰脊為第一之主宰。喉頭為第二之主宰。心地為第三之主宰。
丹田為第一之賓輔。指掌為第二之賓輔。足掌為第三之賓輔。
The lower back is first to command, the throat second to command, solar plexus third to command.
The elixir field is first to obey, palms second to obey, the soles of the feet third to obey.




To me, the ‘obeying’ is equivalent to receiving (absorbing energy) whereas ‘commanding’ would be equivalent to issuing (projecting energy). Then, the dantien initiating receiving energy would make sense to me, followed by the palms (or more precisely, the point of contact with an opponent), and then transmitted through the linkages (‘pearl bends' or joints) of the body to the soles of the feet (the ‘root of the body’, assuming that you are standing). The ‘lower back’ (if equivalent to the mingmen) would also make sense to me as being the first to ‘command’, but I have no speculation on how the throat or solar plexus would be involved in issuing.

Am I misinterpreting this? How are the throat and solar plexus involved in Taijiquan theory?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Dan


Hi Dan,

May I try to share some of my learning experience with you in this?

腰脊為第一之主宰。喉頭為第二之主宰。心地為第三之主宰。
丹田為第一之賓輔。指掌為第二之賓輔。足掌為第三之賓輔。
The lower back is first to command, the throat second to command, solar plexus third to command.
The elixir field is first to obey, palms second to obey, the soles of the feet third to obey.


I myself finally realize 主宰 is better with " first in order of importance/ the primary (for short), and 賓輔 is second in rank of importance/secondary (for short),when we deal with the Taiji process.

I would not look at 心地 as solar plexus. Because it is not making sense. Here we have 腰脊/lower back for the middle, 喉頭/throat for the top/heaven (Chinese loves this), we should have something the Chinese also like as a pair to harmonizing feng-shue..the Earth. So, should we not look at the 心地 as the heart of Earth? How about the "center of earth's gravity" that keep our "Taiji pole" centering from the "suspending head" through the center of the body and out the perineum to the center of our feet/"bubble spring". This will cover our whole 'body-parts.' In other Chinese meaning of 心地 is "wudi/martial art virtue". But this doesn't fit with the body-parts of lower back and throat. As I see it, with the "solar plexus", the lower back, and the throat that only covers the upper half of the body with all 3 rulers resides and the lower body with feet running wild on fire like Hell with no "head"/ 主宰. What kind of Taiji do you think it was?

this divided into three pairs with top line that pair with the bottom line.
腰脊為第一之主宰。 喉頭為第二之主宰。心地為第三之主宰。
丹田為第一之賓輔。 指掌為第二之賓輔。足掌為第三之賓輔。
each pair now have its primary 主宰 and secondary 賓輔. their role can be changes according to the condition within the same cycle as one's intend is changed. Just like you said if your primary intend is to absorbing to dan tien, then your mingmen still have to be there to projecting as secondary supporting system to the whole Taiji process. This can be visa versa when one's desire is to project. Then the projecting is the primary force with the absorting as supporting force.

While some of this may be understandable to me, I have not come across many references to the throat or solar plexus in either personal instructions or reading. I was wondering if someone would be able to elaborate on what is being discussed here.

In all my Taiji principle class, the teacher always pook pook here and pook pook there on the back of my neck and or my chin to reminding me to tuck in the chin! Are you ever got tired of it!? to keep my chin tuck it always gives me a stiff back neck between my ears. They keep it up poking my chin because our neck is always bending backward. They explained to us we need a straight spine, this include the back of the neck so when the chi and or shen decides to shoot straight from the feet to dantein and to the 頭/head ding of the "suspending head." Secondly, this tucking the chin in is protecting my 喉頭/throat from enemy's quick hand attack as well! Thus came the saying "don't ever expose your 喉頭/throat !". After first of couple of years doin Taiji I realized it was much easier to bow my head just a little at the eye level that I can still glaze straight ahead. I do a lot of bowing anyway, so that was easy. Since the head is a odd ball shape. to bow is to roll face, the yin side, downwardly that will simultaneously pull up the back of the neck, yang side. That also giving a little feeling of "pluck-up the back" as well. Since I don't focus on the chin that do the work to roll up straight the back of the neck any more. the stiffness on the back of the neck at between the ears is no longer there. With a fang song neck which make protecting the Adam's apple less effort from sneaky attacks like snake's spit tongue.

So 喉頭/throat is better than the "monkey head" when I practice 虚灵顶劲 气沉丹田 神貫於頂/chi sink to dan tien while shen go to the ding/top". when I need the back of my neck straight with no bend. But if you like it better to hold up your monkey head. Your 喉頭/throat will be exposed. It will be a fair game for my "Monkey offer fruit" to swap your Adam's apple. Why you want to do that? Lead me into temptation or lead me into emptiness?

Am I misinterpreting this? How are the throat and solar plexus involved in Taijiquan theory?Any thoughts would be appreciated.


If the solar plexus as 心地, then solar plexus will be your "Hum/含/suction the chest and pluck the back" come in to play. this also can straight up your whole spine. wouldn't it not? But that still leave you have no 主宰 at the lower half of your body. there gones the Taiji. so is the ILC.

Hope this will give you something to delete....
Ciao,
yslim
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Re: Brennan's translation of Chen Yanlin

Postby DPasek » Wed May 15, 2013 1:21 pm

I do not know if this would relate to Taijiquan, but in asking around about how the lower back, throat, solar plexus may relate to each other, I was sent the following:
There are three bandhas which are considered our internal body locks, prescribed in the different asanas. The bandha is a sustained contraction of a group of muscles that assists the practitioner not only in retaining an asana but also in moving in and out of it. The Mūla Bandha, or root lock, is performed by tightening the muscles around the pelvic and perineum area. The Uḍḍīyāna Bandha, often described as bringing the navel to the base of the spine, is a contraction of the muscles of the lower abdominal area – this bandha is considered the most important bandha as it supports our breathing and encourages the development of strong core muscles. Jālaṅdhara Bandha, throat lock, is achieved by lowering the chin slightly while raising the sternum and the palate bringing the gaze to the tip of the nose.

Dan
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Re: Brennan's translation of Chen Yanlin

Postby AndresKelley » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:09 am

DPasek wrote:In Brennan’s translation of AN OUTLINE OF TAIJI THEORY by Chen Yanlin, there is the following:


心會論
ON MENTALLY UNDERSTANDING
腰脊為第一之主宰。喉頭為第二之主宰。心地為第三之主宰。
丹田為第一之賓輔。指掌為第二之賓輔。足掌為第三之賓輔。
The lower back is first to command, the throat second to command, solar plexus third to command.
The elixir field is first to obey, palms second to obey, the soles of the feet third to obey.


While some of this may be understandable to me, I have not come across many references to the throat or solar plexus in either personal instructions or reading. I was wondering if someone would be able to elaborate on what is being discussed here.

To me, the ‘obeying’ is equivalent to receiving (absorbing energy) whereas ‘commanding’ would be equivalent to issuing (projecting energy). Then, the dantien initiating receiving energy would make sense to me, followed by the palms (or more precisely, the point of contact with an opponent), and then transmitted through the linkages (‘pearl bends' or joints) of the body to the soles of the feet (the ‘root of the body’, assuming that you are standing). The ‘lower back’ (if equivalent to the mingmen) would also make sense to me as being the first to ‘command’, but I have no speculation on how the throat or solar plexus would be involved in issuing.

Am I misinterpreting this? How are the throat and solar plexus involved in Taijiquan theory? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Dan


Were you able to find right translation for throat or solar plexus in Tijiquan theory? I have tried a lot but still unsuccessful.. Hope you will be able to help me out..
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Re: Brennan's translation of Chen Yanlin

Postby UniTaichi » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:02 pm

Hi All,

From my own experience, this is the gongfa on how to fajin.


腰脊為第一之主宰。喉頭為第二之主宰。心地為第三之主宰。
丹田為第一之賓輔。指掌為第二之賓輔。足掌為第三之賓輔。
The lower back is first to command, the throat second to command, solar plexus third to command.
The elixir field is first to obey, palms second to obey, the soles of the feet third to obey.

First, we stick qi to spine/mingmen. The mingmen sends/commands qi up the spine, next the throat utter a sound ''ha'' . The sound sends/command or transmit the next order to the solar plexus. The elixir field/dantian receive the command (from the solar plexus) and obey/carried out/issue the jin, first to palms/fingers and then to the feet.

Hope it helps. :wink:

Cheers,
UniTaichi
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