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Roll Back In Action

PostPosted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:00 pm
by Gu Rou Chen
Here is a clear example of how Roll Back (Lǚ Image is applied. Demonstrated by Master Xie Bingcan (Seattle/Shanghai).


http://www.youtube.com/user/rouchen#p/a/u/1/9Uj67iOMP2w

[This message has been edited by Gu Rou Chen (edited November 03, 2009).]

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:54 am
by Yuri_Snisarenko
Very nice video. Classic postures and vectors of jin.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:48 pm
by Audi
Yes, it is a very nice video clip, with nice energy.

I do not know the context of the demonstration, but he seems to be demonstrating this with smaller circles than we might use in an equivalent setting. We also would tend to use the inside of the forearm, rather than the palm for Rollback.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:46 am
by Yuri_Snisarenko
Inside of the forearm, I belive, is more for deflecting, base of the palm is for fajin (not only of course), so the both are OK in the case of Liu as it seems to me Image


[This message has been edited by Yuri_Snisarenko (edited November 27, 2009).]

PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:43 pm
by Audi
What I have been taught is that the energy is determined by what the recipient feels, not by the outward shape. As a result, Roll Back could be done by any part of the body and certainly by the palm.

Having said that any part of the body is possible, I would have to say, however, that just about all the standard instances I have learned involve contact with the inside of the forearm. This is how we do most of the form and how we do the two-hand vertical circle. The only time we typically use the palm is for the small circle and a relaxed version of the two-hand two-energy horizontal circle.

We also tend to do Rollback more to the rear than to the side.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Inside of the forearm, I believe, is more for deflecting, base of the palm is for fajin (not only of course), so the both are OK in the case of Liu as it seems to me </font>

I am not sure what precisely you mean by "fajin," but I think that if I were actually trying to hurt someone with Rollback, I would try for the forearm against the elbow, rather than the palm against the shoulder. You have to go somewhat with what your opponent gives you, however, and I would have difficulty using the forearm in the situation shown in the video without changing other aspects of the exchange.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:34 am
by Yuri_Snisarenko
Well, my approach is probably a bit different from yours. The form (each technique, each 8 jins) is what gives us a way to express vectors of jin, so the form (and thats why the shape to some extent) is one part of the equation to me. Fu laoshi one day said to me that he often sees in parks people doing pushhands with a fault of not training clear expression of appropriate jin for each "step" of movement. As I see it - they are too much into reacting, reflecting and being soft, forgetting that tuishou (first of all IMHO) is the way to train what we practice in form but in the pair. Each movement is an expression and use of certain jin - in similar way as in the form. Additionally we can train it in deferent modes, including fajin mode where the initiative (in certain circumstances) may come from us not from an opponent.

Jindian which is related to the point of contact and fajin I am referring to in Liu (as I see it) is closer to the base of the palm -

例如由掤转为履式,也是通过由脚而腿而要地将图9 (peng posture) 的右手原在近腕部桡骨一侧的劲点,移经小指一侧 腕 部,到达近腕部尺骨一側。

(from Fu Zhongwen's book)

Here is a vidio of Fu laoshi doing it in fajin mode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToUyWr809Cg



[This message has been edited by Yuri_Snisarenko (edited December 14, 2009).]

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:35 pm
by shugdenla
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yuri_Snisarenko:
<B>Well, my approach is probably a bit different from yours. The form (each technique, each 8 jins) is what gives us a way to express vectors of jin, so the form (and thats why the shape to some extent) is one part of the equation to me. Fu laoshi one day said to me that he often sees in parks people doing pushhands with a fault of not training clear expression of appropriate jin for each "step" of movement. As I see it - they are too much into reacting, reflecting and being soft, forgetting that tuishou (first of all IMHO) is the way to train what we practice in form but in the pair. Each movement is an expression and use of certain jin - in similar way as in the form. Additionally we can train it in deferent modes, including fajin mode where the initiative (in certain circumstances) may come from us not from an opponent.

What is fajin for me? Since my level is not high - to me it's just sending energy to point of contact which is directly related to jindian. Jindian in Liu (as I see it) is closer to the base of the palm -

ÀýÈçÓÉ’òתΪÂÄʽ£¬Ò²ÊÇͨ¹ýÓɽŶøÍȶøÒªµØ½«Í¼9 (peng posture) µÄÓÒÊÖÔ­ÔÚ½üÍó²¿èã¹ÇÒ»²àµÄ¾¢µã£¬Òƾ­Ð¡Ö¸Ò»²à Íó ²¿£¬µ½´ï½üÍ󲿳߹ÇÒ»‚È¡£

(from Fu Zhongwen's book)

Here is a vidio of Fu laoshi doing it in fajin mode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToUyWr809Cg

[This message has been edited by Yuri_Snisarenko (edited November 28, 2009).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yuri,
The video was great but I have never experiened that type of fajing in any encounter relating to or coming from any Yang style practitioner.
I have been shown the mechanics of the push per initial post (video), have experienced the pushing part from my teacher's uncle and it is still somewhat elusive for me.

My experience with an Western practitioner (regardless of the art) was that we both ended up in a sumo type engagement!

Excellent video, nontheless!

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:18 pm
by Yuri_Snisarenko
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shugdenla:
yuri,
The video was great but I have never experiened that type of fajing in any encounter relating to or coming from any Yang style practitioner.
I have been shown the mechanics of the push per initial post (video), have experienced the pushing part from my teacher's uncle and it is still somewhat elusive for me.

</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, it's very rare - maybe as rare as an opportunity to study from childhood under prominent masters in direct line of the Yang family transmission (Fu Zhongwen was a Yang family relative though not in blood relation, Fu Qingquan studyed first from his grandfather).


[This message has been edited by Yuri_Snisarenko (edited November 29, 2009).]

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:55 pm
by Gu Rou Chen
The change to the ulna side of the hand, wrist and arm, mentioned in Fu's book is worth taking note of.


右手原在近腕部桡骨一侧的劲点,移经小指一侧 腕 部,到达近腕部尺骨一側。

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:25 am
by Yuri_Snisarenko
I agree, that's a more precise definition than just "inside" of the forearm/hand/wrist.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:24 am
by Gu Rou Chen
More application clips posted here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/rouchen

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:27 am
by JerryKarin
On your channel, why do you mention "Internal Strength Qi Energy applied in self defense fighting"? For many months I went to Xie's house once a week to push hands and he never once mentioned Qi. He talked about posture, structures, spirals, and the basic principles of taiji. I have had most of the moves shown in the videos done to me and he never said a word about Qi.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:36 am
by JerryKarin
One of the things he did talk about which is shown in the videos is having a fist and extending the index finger. It creates some sort of structure in the arm which is very powerful. He warned me, however, that if an opponent knew any qin-na this wouldn't work!