angles

angles

Postby jack » Sat May 17, 2014 5:04 pm

Greetings!

I have heard today that front leg toe and back leg toe are kept at different angles in different postures. I am not sure what should be the angle, below is the list of angles pls make it correct if i am wrong.

(1) Grasp bird's tail = 45 degree angle.

(2) Single whip = 90 degree angle.

(3) Brush knee = 45 degree angle.

(4) white crane spread wings = less than 45 degree angle.

(5) snake creeps down = 180 degree

(6) Bend the bow = 45 degree angle.

(7) Shoot the tiger = less than 45 degree angle.

(8) Parting wild horse mane = 45 degree angle.

(9) Fair lady = less than 45 degree angle.

(10) Repulse monkey = 45 degree angle.

(11) Needle at sea = less than 45 degree angle.

(12) Fist under elbow = 90 degree angle.

(13) step forward = 90 degree angle.

(14) Hands strum the lute = 90 degree angle.

(15) High pat on horse = 90 degree angle.

Thanks
jack
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Re: angles

Postby Audi » Sun May 18, 2014 1:27 am

Jack,

What form do you do? Different lineages have different form requirements.

In our version of Yang Style, bow stances generally have a 45 degree angle, with some slight adjustment in a few postures. Some other Yang lineages may ask for a slightly wider angle (50-60 degrees?). In empty stances, we also require 45 degrees, but I think the forms in the Cheng Man-ch'ing lineage require 90 degrees in some of the form postures that have empty stances.
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Re: angles

Postby jack » Sun May 18, 2014 3:03 pm

I do the same yang style but my friend show me one video and he also told me that distance of angles of distances to be kept but i doubt so i posted this question here. But can u tell me when the distance changes slightly?

Thanks
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Re: angles

Postby Audi » Thu May 22, 2014 2:27 am

I forgot to say that in Snake Creeps Downs we maintain an angle of 135 degrees.

As for the stances that change slightly, that would be the Bow Stance in the Right Separation Kick and perhaps the three repetitions of Part Wild Horses Mane. Some lineages close to ours require a Dragon Stance (I believe that is the name) for Left and Right Strike the Tiger, rather than a bow stance.

The choreography of the Separation Kicks calls for two bow stances that continue in the same direction (i.e., east) without adjusting the back foot. This choreography is common in our sword form. To accomplish it, the front toes cannot point directly in the direction of overall movement (i.e., east), but must be angled somewhere around 22.5 degrees from that direction so that they will be in the right position for the next step forward. If one foot is angled 22.5 degrees in one direction, and the other is angled the same distance in the other direction, the overall angle will remain 45 degrees.

Since the transitional bow stance in Left Separation kick comes immediately out of High Pat on Horse, there is no opportunity to adjust the back foot and so it must stay at a 45 degree angle to the right of east. This would produce a 67.5 degree angle between the feet if you stepped out with the left foot precisely at a 22.5 degree angle to the left of east; however, I don't think our requirements are so exact. I think I angle my front foot at anywhere between about 15 degrees and 35 degrees. As far as I am aware, Left Separation Kick, unlike Right Separation Kick, should be a regulation bow stance with 45 degrees between the feet, except that the front toes (and therefore the entire stance) will be angled to the right of east at some angle distinctly less than 45 degrees.

I have never been completely certain of the requirements of Parting Wild Horse's Mane, but the footwork is similar to what I described for the transitional bow stance in Left Separation Kick. The only difference I think there is is that there is a slight opening of the back-foot-to-be so that the overall stance will be slightly wider than normal, perhaps 50-60 degrees, in keeping with the application.

Take care,
Audi
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Re: angles

Postby ruben » Thu May 22, 2014 9:33 am

Hi Audi!
What a great summary you have done about angles for non standard steps!
Regards,

Rubèn
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Re: angles

Postby jack » Sat May 24, 2014 5:04 pm

Really a great explanation. Can u suggest any video which can explain it in detail? On net, there are hundreds of videos but hardly any video explains it. Another thing is that very few video demonstration are of front view. So exact body placement are not visible. Can u suggest one?
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Re: angles

Postby ruben » Sat May 24, 2014 11:49 pm

Hi Jack.
On this webpage there are some videos from Master Yang Jun explaining 103 hand form.
You have to look at videos section.
Regards,

Rubèn
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Re: angles

Postby jack » Sun May 25, 2014 6:13 pm

Hi ruben,

I have many videos of Yang Jun's performance. But these performances are on side view. It doesn't show front view and foot step explanation is not in all these parts. If you have pls post a link.

Thanks
Jack
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Re: angles

Postby Sugelanren » Sun May 25, 2014 11:11 pm

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you can't learn Tai Chi by watching videos. You need an instructor.
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Re: angles

Postby ruben » Mon May 26, 2014 12:33 am

Dear Jack
Sugenlanren is right.
Maybe you can join some of Master Yang Jun seminars. It is the best choice if you want to learn Taijiquan and if you want to improve your practise.
Regards,

Rubén
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Re: angles

Postby Audi » Tue May 27, 2014 1:23 am

I think having a teacher or joining a seminar are excellent ideas; however, I think that some people can learn a lot from an instructional DVD or video. These are quite different from video clips, because they generally provide multiple angles and in-depth instruction about things like stances. If you pick a form that has online support, such as here, you can also ask questions about what is not clear. I have Master Yang's form DVD and think it is excellent, but there are also other excellent ones as well.

There are other aspects of Tai Chi that cannot really be learned except in person. It's kind of like learning a language. Many people can do a lot with written materials and videos, but some things can only be learned and practiced in person.
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Re: angles

Postby Sugelanren » Thu May 29, 2014 2:46 pm

Hi Audi. First off, let me say that i respect your experience and your knowledge. I'm in no way trying to argue with you here. You've answered any queries i've had and i am grateful for the help i get from this site.

From "The five levels of Taijiquan" by Chen Xiaowang.

"Correct posture forms the foundation of tai chi chuan. This is necessary before the chi can flow prop­erly. To adopt the correct posture, keep the body vertical, the head held as if suspended from above, the shoulders and chest relaxed, the waist supple, the knees bent, and the groin open. Let your intrinsic chi settle and sink to the dan tian, or lower abdomen. You may not be able to do this straight away, but aim for gradual correctness in relation to direction, angle, position, and movement of the limbs to attain the right postures."

How can anyone dream of correcting their own posture? Learning Tai chi from a video is like learning Chinese from a Chinese movie. Sure you might get the sounds right in places, you might even be able to quote some scenes from the movie verbatim - but you won't know what you're saying, or whether you're pronouncing it right until you have someone who knows what they'r talking about listen and correct. A simple example is the straight back (one given in GM Chen's book). You can feel that your back is straight, but when corrected (because you're used to the original position) it feels like you're leaning forward. So, when you practice you look for that feeling, and maybe you start leaning forward too much...but with constant correction you will eventually find the money spot. These types of corrections have to be done in person.

I agree that you can learn a lot from instructional videos, but they are best for people who have a basic grasp of the subject surely? Telling someone anything different is (and i mean this with total respect, i can't stress this enough) snake oil. Tai Chi is so much more than "step forward, raise hand, turn left, raise two hands".
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Re: angles

Postby Audi » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:08 am

Hi Sugelanren,

Learning Tai chi from a video is like learning Chinese from a Chinese movie. Sure you might get the sounds right in places, you might even be able to quote some scenes from the movie verbatim - but you won't know what you're saying, or whether you're pronouncing it right until you have someone who knows what they'r talking about listen and correct.

I personally do not like learning languages through movies; however, I have heard of more than one person who has claimed to have learned English in that way.

I have to say that I actually mostly agree with what you are saying; however consider two things. Some people live in remote areas far from qualified teachers or have little money to travel or pay for listens. Is it really better that such people do nothing rather than study with a commercial DVD and begin to learn a form? I believe I have met people who have had limited exposure to a teacher and yet have studied our form through the DVD. To me, it seems that they can indeed progress to a certain point before they will hit a wall.

If we are talking about coming close to mastering a significant portion of Tai Chi. Then I agree that this cannot be done by video. I would also agree that looking at the typical YouTube videos would not be very productive, since there is usually only very limited instruction.

My own recommendation is that a commercial DVD would be fine to begin with, but that it would be important to visit a teacher, even if only a few times a year, to get corrections. When there was certain instruction that I wanted, that is the method I have adopted. Even now, I live about an hour away from most of my practice partners and/or students, and so they or I have to travel significantly to learn and practice the things we want to study.

As for things like correcting a straight back, I think that many students who have studied for 5-10 years or more still receive such basic corrections on a fairly frequent basis. Doing Tai Chi is easy. Doing it well is not.

Take care,
Audi
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