What is the difference between 103 and 108 Forms?

What is the difference between 103 and 108 Forms?

Postby Dennis01 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:43 pm

Hi, I am trying to understand why there would be 2 forms so similar in number of positions. Thanks!
Dennis01
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:35 pm

Re: What is the difference between 103 and 108 Forms?

Postby Audi » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:04 pm

These are different names for the same thing. Most traditional Yang Style practitioners that do a long form, perform more or less the same postures in the same sequence; however, the number of moves is counted differently by different teachers. I have heard counts as low as 85 and as high as 150 or so.

If this explanation is not clear, consider whether Cloud Hands is one move or three. Is there one move between Cross Hands and Fist Under Elbow, five, or something in between? Do you count the Preparation Posture and Return to the Beginning as individual postures? Do you have a posture called Shoulder Stroke between Step up and Lift Hands and White Crane Spreads Wings, or do you merely show a transitional shoulder stroke?
Audi
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 7:01 am
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: What is the difference between 103 and 108 Forms?

Postby fchai » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:02 am

Greetings,
I also know some schools that like to claim "108" , because some people think that it gives the form they teach an aura of authenticity to those who hold "108" as some sort of sacred number in Taiji. There is one school I know that teaches their own long form that is based on the Beijing 24 and not on the traditional long form. They have included moves that are not of the traditional Yang form that I am familiar with, so as to lengthen their form. Where these moves come from is anyone's guess. They also count every single movement so that they add up to the magical "108". From start to finish it takes about 14 mins, which is about half the time it takes me to do the Yang long form that I practice.
But going back to the question, Audi pretty much sums it up. Though it's the first time I have read of folks counting to 150! The mind boggles!
Take care.
Frank
fchai
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:11 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: What is the difference between 103 and 108 Forms?

Postby Audi » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:28 pm

Frank,

I also know some schools that like to claim "108" , because some people think that it gives the form they teach an aura of authenticity to those who hold "108" as some sort of sacred number in Taiji.


I have heard of 64 being put forward as special because of the Yi Jing/I Ching hexagrams, but never heard of 108 as special. On the other hand, 108 is indeed the count that I first applied to the association's form, but I don't know where I got it from. The Association counts it as 103, and Fu Zhongwen counted it as 85. Do you happen to know which, if any, of Yang Chengfu's lineage used the 108 count?

Though it's the first time I have read of folks counting to 150! The mind boggles!


I think the first form I learned was counted as containing 150 or so moves and recently learned that it stemmed originally from T.T. Liang. I learned it as part of the then curriculum of Ten Chi Kempo Karate. It's been over 30 years since I have done that form; but here, if you care, is how you can get from 108 to near 150:

Count every time you do something that looks like Grasp Sparrows Tail as four, rather than one move. (Believe it or not, the Association has no postures called "Ward Off," "Rollback," or "Press," and no posture just called "Push.") That adds about 24 moves. Do five repetitions of each iteration of Repulse Monkey, Cloud Hands, and Wild Horse Parts its Mane, rather than only three. That adds about 10 moves. Add in a few stray Shoulder Strokes and Ward Off Lefts, and you can add at least another 5. That gives a total of at least 108 + 39 = 147. To get to 150 or above, I think we may have done additional Brush Knees or split some postures into two, like separating out the "Single Whip" part of Fist Under Elbow, but my memory fails.

Actually, to observe some really creative accounting, you can look at what the various styles pack into their "13-move" forms. Thirteen--now, there is a number guaranteed to spark feelings of luck and blessings for many in the US and Europe!
Audi
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 7:01 am
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: What is the difference between 103 and 108 Forms?

Postby Dennis01 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:17 am

Excellent - so I will learn the 108 form, and can then claim I can also do the 85, 103, 150 forms! :D
Thanks you for the responses! 8)
Dennis01
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:35 pm

Re: What is the difference between 103 and 108 Forms?

Postby fchai » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:00 pm

Greetings Audi,
Have no knowledge of Yang Lu Chan or Yang Cheng Fu using 108 as the number of postures or movement. None of their immediate students, that I am aware, used this number. Perhaps the knowledgeable Louis might know. Certainly, in Australia, 108 seems to carry some mystical weight for some reasom. I know of some Wu and even Chen styles that use the 108. I think that the Yoga practitioners hold 108 as significant. 108 is derived from 9, 12 x 9, which is a significant and symbolically meaningful number. There is a connection to the I Ching as well because of this. That's about all I know.
Take care,
Frank
fchai
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:11 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: What is the difference between 103 and 108 Forms?

Postby DPasek » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:01 pm

I agree with Audi concerning the numbering of the form. There is a numerological significance to the number 9, and the multiples of 9. Here is what I wrote in the following thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1984&p=13287&hilit=outlaws#p13287

The 72 Stages of Progress, Feb 22, 2013: There are many ‘auspicious’ numbers in Chinese cosmology that make appearances in Taijiquan literature. The reference to two of these numbers, 72 and 36, added together equals 108, is what many claim as the number of postures in their long forms are the same numbers that produce the 108 outlaws of the marsh [Water Margin; Shuihu Zhuan (36 heavenly stars + 72 earthly fiends)], as well as Buddhist rosaries with 108 beads.... Traditionally one may also say that there are 36 main types of jin (trained force) in Taijiquan. But all of this seems to me to be rather arbitrary attempts to fit the art into auspicious numerology and should not necessarily be taken literally.
DPasek
 
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:01 am
Location: Pittsboro, NC USA


Return to Miscellaneous

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron