Hi, Dan:
I can't agree with you more about your following four conclusions. With this Peng Jin as a core capability, the other Jin can be possible to produce. My English is limited, but I really understand your feeling and writing. Good for you, Dan.
Maybe, I'll consider how to describe what water movement is like Taichi's roll back.
But it takes a little time.
Quote "Water masses, or steam that is coordinated into acting in a unified manner, have the potential to exert tremendous forces. It is this unity that powers all 8 Taijiquan jin.
Yielding, yet strong; soft yet powerful; it is these qualities of water that produce pengjin.
The greater the incoming force, the greater the difficulty it has to further penetrate the Taijiquan practitioner’s structure, and the greater the resulting rebounding energy.
Thus this pengjin can be exerted in any direction in Taijiquan, and its direction depends on the direction that the incoming force is from. " Quote
The meaning of an?
by DPasek » Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:35 pm
Fumin,
Although English is not your native language, I think that you are able to convey the meaning in your posts. Here are my thoughts for water qualities in Lu (‘diverting’ or ‘roll-back’). I look forward to your ideas, especially since your previous posts seem to indicate that Lujin may be one of the favorite energies used in your Taijiquan practice.
Objects tossed into a river typically either have little effect on it (sinking to the bottom) or are carried along by the river current. It takes a very large object (great force) to interrupt the river’s flow, and even then the river finds a new path in order to continue its journey. The flow of a river catches and controls objects that enter its current, and the river has a winding path due to diverting around terrain obstacles in its path (the current also curves around obstacles within the riverbed).
Lujin (‘diverting’ or ‘roll-back’) in Taijiquan acts similar to a river and its currents. Force directed towards the Taijiquan practitioner should be met and captured in the flowing ‘current’ produced by the curved paths of the arms and body moving around the body’s mass. Ineffective forces are still connected to and controlled to some degree, but are allowed to drop away (sink to the bottom of the river); but forces that have a stronger interaction with the river are controlled by the current’s flow and are swept by it around objects (the mass of one’s body) with the current dictating the path taken. A very strong or overpowering force is also connected to the flowing ‘current’ of the Taijiquan practitioner, but here we use shifts in weight and stepping (taking a new path) to avoid the force while still controlling the path that the incoming force takes (typically keeping that force close to its original path, perhaps also helping to extend it beyond the initially intended place of application), while maintaining our goal of maintaining our ‘central equilibrium’
Taijiquan lujin should not be angular and should instead exhibit smooth movements similar to the winding, curving, arcing paths that currents take. The energy of Taijiquan lu should be guiding rather than forcing, and it is effective because it is directing and controlling the direction of the incoming force along the same general direction that the incoming force is already on.
While rivers flow along downwards due to the force of gravity, in deep pools it can also flow up and down. Similarly, ocean currents tend to flow horizontally due to the Earth’s rotation, but also flow up and down due to temperature gradients, etc. Taijiquan lujin tends to direct incoming energy to the side and back (if dealing with force applied from the practitioner’s front) due to the generation of the movement (‘currents’) from the turning of the torso. Also, since the arms, which typically execute the technique, are connected at the top of the torso, the energy of lu tends to be downwards. But one can also use lujin against force from the back or side, and thus the directional term ‘back’ in the common description of ‘roll-back’ does not strictly apply (although it does describe the majority of situations since we are typically facing our adversary). We can apply lujin in any direction due to our musculoskeletal structure, and can thus divert incoming force in any direction, although the most common direction is down and around. It is also possible to execute lujin using any part of the body.
Dan
Although English is not your native language, I think that you are able to convey the meaning in your posts. Here are my thoughts for water qualities in Lu (‘diverting’ or ‘roll-back’). I look forward to your ideas, especially since your previous posts seem to indicate that Lujin may be one of the favorite energies used in your Taijiquan practice.
Objects tossed into a river typically either have little effect on it (sinking to the bottom) or are carried along by the river current. It takes a very large object (great force) to interrupt the river’s flow, and even then the river finds a new path in order to continue its journey. The flow of a river catches and controls objects that enter its current, and the river has a winding path due to diverting around terrain obstacles in its path (the current also curves around obstacles within the riverbed).
Lujin (‘diverting’ or ‘roll-back’) in Taijiquan acts similar to a river and its currents. Force directed towards the Taijiquan practitioner should be met and captured in the flowing ‘current’ produced by the curved paths of the arms and body moving around the body’s mass. Ineffective forces are still connected to and controlled to some degree, but are allowed to drop away (sink to the bottom of the river); but forces that have a stronger interaction with the river are controlled by the current’s flow and are swept by it around objects (the mass of one’s body) with the current dictating the path taken. A very strong or overpowering force is also connected to the flowing ‘current’ of the Taijiquan practitioner, but here we use shifts in weight and stepping (taking a new path) to avoid the force while still controlling the path that the incoming force takes (typically keeping that force close to its original path, perhaps also helping to extend it beyond the initially intended place of application), while maintaining our goal of maintaining our ‘central equilibrium’
Taijiquan lujin should not be angular and should instead exhibit smooth movements similar to the winding, curving, arcing paths that currents take. The energy of Taijiquan lu should be guiding rather than forcing, and it is effective because it is directing and controlling the direction of the incoming force along the same general direction that the incoming force is already on.
While rivers flow along downwards due to the force of gravity, in deep pools it can also flow up and down. Similarly, ocean currents tend to flow horizontally due to the Earth’s rotation, but also flow up and down due to temperature gradients, etc. Taijiquan lujin tends to direct incoming energy to the side and back (if dealing with force applied from the practitioner’s front) due to the generation of the movement (‘currents’) from the turning of the torso. Also, since the arms, which typically execute the technique, are connected at the top of the torso, the energy of lu tends to be downwards. But one can also use lujin against force from the back or side, and thus the directional term ‘back’ in the common description of ‘roll-back’ does not strictly apply (although it does describe the majority of situations since we are typically facing our adversary). We can apply lujin in any direction due to our musculoskeletal structure, and can thus divert incoming force in any direction, although the most common direction is down and around. It is also possible to execute lujin using any part of the body.
Dan
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by DPasek » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:59 pm
Anjin (‘push’) takes the qualities of waves acting against objects, whether gently like waves lapping against the object, more powerfully like waves crashing against rocks along a coast, or like a tidal wave where the coordinated mass of water can be extremely powerful. The coordinated force of water waves can uproot objects and push or tumble them along. In Taijiquan, anjin acts against the mass of the opponent in order to control them, uproot them, or push them away. This action against the opponent’s mass takes a path from the point of contact with them, through their structure, and into their mass. Anjin is also similar to the ability of water to adhere to the surface of objects and exerts its effects against the surface of those objects.
Jijin (‘squeeze’ or ‘press’) acts from the inside like water that has flowed or seeped into cracks and crevices, or like water undercutting a river bank, or enlarging depressions in the riverbed by swirling inside of the hole. In Taijiquan, jijin works against the soft or weak places presented by opponent such that the structural integrity that would keep their mass stable is undermined.
To use the water analogy to contrast these two energies, anjin would be like waves crashing against a boulder to tip it over or roll it along, while jijin would be like eroding the ground supporting the boulder in order to undermine it and tip it over, or like eroding the softer veins within the harder stone in order to break the boulder apart [to disrupt the boulder’s ‘structural integrity’].
Dan
Jijin (‘squeeze’ or ‘press’) acts from the inside like water that has flowed or seeped into cracks and crevices, or like water undercutting a river bank, or enlarging depressions in the riverbed by swirling inside of the hole. In Taijiquan, jijin works against the soft or weak places presented by opponent such that the structural integrity that would keep their mass stable is undermined.
To use the water analogy to contrast these two energies, anjin would be like waves crashing against a boulder to tip it over or roll it along, while jijin would be like eroding the ground supporting the boulder in order to undermine it and tip it over, or like eroding the softer veins within the harder stone in order to break the boulder apart [to disrupt the boulder’s ‘structural integrity’].
Dan
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by fumin » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:42 am
Hi,Dan:
My response is a little delay because I am back to Taiwan for two-month vacation. Things has been settled down. Thank you for your patient,continual and elaborated description of Pen, Lu, Ji, and An with the comparison between water and Taichi quan.
I can't make this subtle statement but I can admire and enjoy your details.
To me, I apply Taichi quan in a simple way with my opponent, so I make an easy and short response. I know a simple movement overcoming the opponent actually includes many sophisticated descriptions,especially in a water-related way.
I appreciate you go ahead sharing your excellent 13 shi (momentum) after my short remarks.
Pen is like water with its basic characteristic in itself. For example, When someone wants to press down the lifejacket on the water,he can't make it because one part of the lifejacket is down and the other parts still remain up.
As you said,Lu is the relationship among life boat, water and terrain. Life boat (opponent) is carried down on the water with pen Jin while the terrain is gradually downwards and controlled by me. While the
lifeboat is carried to some point where there is sudden terrain drop, and then a continuous curve from the change of our structure. Lu is done.
Talk you later about An and Press.
Hopefully, it is understandable.
[This message has been edited by fumin (edited 09-03-2008).]
[This message has been edited by fumin (edited 09-03-2008).]
My response is a little delay because I am back to Taiwan for two-month vacation. Things has been settled down. Thank you for your patient,continual and elaborated description of Pen, Lu, Ji, and An with the comparison between water and Taichi quan.
I can't make this subtle statement but I can admire and enjoy your details.
To me, I apply Taichi quan in a simple way with my opponent, so I make an easy and short response. I know a simple movement overcoming the opponent actually includes many sophisticated descriptions,especially in a water-related way.
I appreciate you go ahead sharing your excellent 13 shi (momentum) after my short remarks.
Pen is like water with its basic characteristic in itself. For example, When someone wants to press down the lifejacket on the water,he can't make it because one part of the lifejacket is down and the other parts still remain up.
As you said,Lu is the relationship among life boat, water and terrain. Life boat (opponent) is carried down on the water with pen Jin while the terrain is gradually downwards and controlled by me. While the
lifeboat is carried to some point where there is sudden terrain drop, and then a continuous curve from the change of our structure. Lu is done.
Talk you later about An and Press.
Hopefully, it is understandable.
[This message has been edited by fumin (edited 09-03-2008).]
[This message has been edited by fumin (edited 09-03-2008).]
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by DPasek » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:25 pm
Fumin,
I like your lifejacket analogy for pengjin. I also like that you kept the pengjin analogy (i.e. the boat on the water) when you expressed your thoughts on lujin (boat/water/terrain). Please keep your ideas coming (and enjoy your vacation!).
Dan
I like your lifejacket analogy for pengjin. I also like that you kept the pengjin analogy (i.e. the boat on the water) when you expressed your thoughts on lujin (boat/water/terrain). Please keep your ideas coming (and enjoy your vacation!).
Dan
- DPasek
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by Audi » Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:13 pm
Hi Dan and Fumin,
You both are describing some interesting images. Metaphors like these can be helpful to some people in refining their practice. As you may recall, Louis led a thread on metaphors a couple of years back that was also quite interesting.
As I think about water metaphors that might describe the 8 Jins in the manner I described them earlier, I keep bumping into the fact that the intent or feeling of the opponent seems to be a critical component. In other words, any physical metaphor leaves an important piece missing; nevertheless, let me share a few that might describe at least a part of my views.
Water is an interesting metaphor, not only because of the specific connotations it has in traditional Chinese culture, but also because it is a medium that can make visible various types of energy in the Newtonian sense. The energy itself has no form, but it can nevertheless give shape to water it encounters.
First, as I understand the Association teachings, Pengjin, in the general sense, is something that arises simply by consciously loosening and extending the joints. Nothing more is really required; however, to make it useful, you need to “shape” the Pengjin with your intent. In this sense, I can liken the feel of the joints to ice, water vapor, and liquid water.
When the joints are stiff, they make the body into a block of ice. Even though the body is unified in a sense, it has little ability to change, little ability to show Yin-Yang alternation.
When the joints are completely limp and without energy, they make the body amorphous and weak, like a cloud of water droplets. Change is quick and easy, but there is no stability. Again, there is little ability to show Yin-Yang alternation.
When the joints alternate between stiff and limp, they make the body like snow. Parts can be soft and cottony; parts can be sharp and lumpy. Although there is Yin and Yang, there is really no feel of alternation. The body is a mix of Yin and Yang, but does not show the dynamic interplay of Taiji.
When the joints are loose and extended, they make the body like water. All the parts are joined, but in a fluid, rather than a rigid way. Individually the parts are weak, but together they have the power of a strong wave. The effect can be soft and gentle, like floating down a stream, or hard and powerful, like the feel of water gushing out of a fire hose.
As for Wardoff energy specifically, I would make an analogy to walking waist deep into a rip current or a flooding stream. The opponent “steps” in; and although he feels he can touch bottom, he cannot resist the relentless flow and is swept away.
In the basic Wardoff application I described in a previous post on this thread, your forearm is placed behind the opponent’s arm and directs energy behind the opponent’s shoulder to sweep his body away; however, even in the basic one-hand horizontal push hands circle, the energy is similar. Using sticking (Zhan), you tend to sweep the opponent out of his root, even though you are pulling only the opponent’s energy, and not his actual arm. In this case, I prefer this imagery of sweeping to imagery that implies that you are repelling the opponent’s energy from your center. Any idea of “repelling” tends to lead to the fault of resisting and gives the opponent a sense of a “hollow” or “projection” at the point of rotation that he or she can push against, even if you keep your arm perfectly round.
Take care,
Audi
You both are describing some interesting images. Metaphors like these can be helpful to some people in refining their practice. As you may recall, Louis led a thread on metaphors a couple of years back that was also quite interesting.
As I think about water metaphors that might describe the 8 Jins in the manner I described them earlier, I keep bumping into the fact that the intent or feeling of the opponent seems to be a critical component. In other words, any physical metaphor leaves an important piece missing; nevertheless, let me share a few that might describe at least a part of my views.
Water is an interesting metaphor, not only because of the specific connotations it has in traditional Chinese culture, but also because it is a medium that can make visible various types of energy in the Newtonian sense. The energy itself has no form, but it can nevertheless give shape to water it encounters.
First, as I understand the Association teachings, Pengjin, in the general sense, is something that arises simply by consciously loosening and extending the joints. Nothing more is really required; however, to make it useful, you need to “shape” the Pengjin with your intent. In this sense, I can liken the feel of the joints to ice, water vapor, and liquid water.
When the joints are stiff, they make the body into a block of ice. Even though the body is unified in a sense, it has little ability to change, little ability to show Yin-Yang alternation.
When the joints are completely limp and without energy, they make the body amorphous and weak, like a cloud of water droplets. Change is quick and easy, but there is no stability. Again, there is little ability to show Yin-Yang alternation.
When the joints alternate between stiff and limp, they make the body like snow. Parts can be soft and cottony; parts can be sharp and lumpy. Although there is Yin and Yang, there is really no feel of alternation. The body is a mix of Yin and Yang, but does not show the dynamic interplay of Taiji.
When the joints are loose and extended, they make the body like water. All the parts are joined, but in a fluid, rather than a rigid way. Individually the parts are weak, but together they have the power of a strong wave. The effect can be soft and gentle, like floating down a stream, or hard and powerful, like the feel of water gushing out of a fire hose.
As for Wardoff energy specifically, I would make an analogy to walking waist deep into a rip current or a flooding stream. The opponent “steps” in; and although he feels he can touch bottom, he cannot resist the relentless flow and is swept away.
In the basic Wardoff application I described in a previous post on this thread, your forearm is placed behind the opponent’s arm and directs energy behind the opponent’s shoulder to sweep his body away; however, even in the basic one-hand horizontal push hands circle, the energy is similar. Using sticking (Zhan), you tend to sweep the opponent out of his root, even though you are pulling only the opponent’s energy, and not his actual arm. In this case, I prefer this imagery of sweeping to imagery that implies that you are repelling the opponent’s energy from your center. Any idea of “repelling” tends to lead to the fault of resisting and gives the opponent a sense of a “hollow” or “projection” at the point of rotation that he or she can push against, even if you keep your arm perfectly round.
Take care,
Audi
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