Cai, Lie, Zhou, and Kao

[BenM]

I have been looking into the 8 energies again lately and was hoping someone could help me out. Could some of those of you who speak Chinese give me an idea on the correct way to pronounce these? Also, do you think Pull(down), Split, Elbow, and Shoulder are good/accurate translations?

Thanks in advance!

[Audi]

Greetings BenM,

Sorry for the delay in approving your post.

Most of the links below will give you a sense of the meanings. They also lead to buttons that will allow you to hear the pronunciation.

"Pull down" is 采 (cǎi). The pronunciation is something like the sequence of the underline letters "tshigh" in the phrase "hits high over the fence."

"Split" is 挒, a character more or less specific to Tai Chi, and is pronounced the same as 裂 (liè or liě). The pronunciation is something like "Lee yeah" with the emphasis on "yeah" and pronounced as one syllable.

"Elbow(ing)" is 肘 (zhǒu). The pronunciation is something like "Joe."

"Shouldering" is 靠 (kào). The pronunciation is something like "cow."

What I can add about the meanings from my current understanding is the following:

The meaning of 采 (cǎi) useful for Tai Chi is "pluck" or "pick." It implies moving something from one place to another after grasping it.

The linguistic meaning of 挒 (liè or liě) is unclear to me, but from what I understand its Tai Chi meaning implies a whirling/snapping energy.

The linguistic meaning of 肘 (zhǒu) is generally "elbow," but the Tai Chi meaning is better understood as "elbowing."

The meaning of 靠 (kào) useful for Tai Chi is to use your body energy to bump or press against something. Although the shoulder is often used for this, the Chinese word does not imply the shoulder in any way. In ordinary Chinese, it could, for instance, be used to apply to what your back does to the back of a chair as you sit down in it. I think the Association is now switching to the wording "body check," which I think of as an ice-hockey term.

Take care,
Audi

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings Ben and Audi,

Audi, that's great info on the listed terms. Regarding 挒 lie, I recall a discussion here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=232 some years back in which we speculated about possible meanings and translations of the term, including "twisting" (via Wen Zee's translation of Ma Yueliang's Push Hands book), "force-couple," and "torque." It seems it's still a challenge to find a good rendering for the term.

Take care,
Louis

[Audi]

Greetings Louis and Tai Chi Friends,

I recently reviewed Master Yang's video on Push Hands: Volume 2 -- Applications and Neutralizations, which, by the way, I again highly recommend for those interested in the martial side of Taijiquan. During Master Yang's discussion of Split on the video, he demonstrates various applications that I think most experience practitioners would recognize as Split; he concludes, however, by showing a simple open hand strike as another possible manifestation of this energy. He explains this by saying that Split means "quick," "short," "twisting" and/or "going in different directions." It is explanations like these that have lead me to introduce the word "snap" in my translations.

I should emphasize, especially for those perhaps not completely comfortable with English, that the word "snap" has two parallel threads of meaning. One thread means to break something long or thin into two pieces in an abrupt manner (e.g., snapping a twig in two). The other thread means to perform some action in a manner that is as abrupt as "snapping" something in two. From this second meaning we get such phrases as "snapping the fingers" or a dog "snapping at someone's hand" (i.e., abruptly executing a biting motion without actually making contact). I am going into detail here because the word "snap" sometimes means to break something and sometimes does not. The core meaning deals more with the abruptness of the movement or the abruptness of the effect than with the exact nature of the effect. I think that 挒 liè is the same. It is a "snapping" energy, but does not require that anything be broken or "split in two." To produce a "snap," you may well, of course, have to move something in opposite directions, just as we do with either of the two methods commonly used to snap the fingers; however, it is not the opposite directions themselves that make it "Split" energy, at least according to my understanding.

Take care,
Audi

[BenM]

Thanks very much!

With my current understanding and training I think of "lie" as energy/force in opposite directions and the resulting whirlpool between them. Sometimes the focus is more on the oposite directions( pulling the oponents arm torwards you and sending the other hand out to strike the head/neck for example), sometimes its on the whirlpool ( applying force by putting one hand on the lower back and the other on the face to cause the opponent to go off balance from the "wirlpool effect").

I have always trained to maintain the center. In my experiance this prevents movements that let the momentum get out of control. Lately I have been thinking of "Kao" as a controlled use of momentum/body weight.

Thoughts?

[Audi]

Hi Ben,

Lately I have been thinking of "Kao" as a controlled use of momentum/body weight.

Thoughts?

Depending on what you mean by "momentum," your description could apply to what I have been taught. What I would say is that Kao refers to Jin that is primarily manifested by the body, rather than by the limbs.

Take care,
Audi

[DPasek]

...He explains this by saying that Split means "quick," "short," "twisting" and/or "going in different directions." It is explanations like these that have lead me to introduce the word "snap" in my translations.

Ben, Audi & everyone else,

As I understand it, liejin essentially includes any qinna applications (the ‘push/pull’ which applies torque), whether applied slowly or quickly. [Rending, tearing, snapping, wringing, ripping etc; any action that uses points of application to apply toque]

While qinna applications can be applied quickly (snappily), they can also be applied with the same mechanics and same points of contact in a slower manner for control rather than to damage the opponent. I would guess that Master Yang applies his examples of liejin in a controlled manner on his video; would this no longer be liejin as demonstrated because he is applying it too slowly? If not liejin, then which of the other jin would this slower application of the energy be? Would qinna applied slowly no longer be using one of the eight energies of Taijiquan and thus no longer be an example of Taijiquan??

I don’t want to be critical, but I want to caution against defining the eight energies of Taijiquan too narrowly – we only have combinations of eight energies to use to describe ALL possible Taijiquan applications, so please do not be too limiting on how they are defined.

Dan

[yslim]

...He explains this by saying that Split means "quick," "short," "twisting" and/or "going in different directions." It is explanations like these that have lead me to introduce the word "snap" in my translations.

Ben, Audi & everyone else,

As I understand it, liejin essentially includes any qinna applications (the ‘push/pull’ which applies torque), whether applied slowly or quickly. [Rending, tearing, snapping, wringing, ripping etc; any action that uses points of application to apply toque]

While qinna applications can be applied quickly (snappily), they can also be applied with the same mechanics and same points of contact in a slower manner for control rather than to damage the opponent. I would guess that Master Yang applies his examples of liejin in a controlled manner on his video; would this no longer be liejin as demonstrated because he is applying it too slowly? If not liejin, then which of the other jin would this slower application of the energy be? Would qinna applied slowly no longer be using one of the eight energies of Taijiquan and thus no longer be an example of Taijiquan??

I don’t want to be critical, but I want to caution against defining the eight energies of Taijiquan too narrowly – we only have combinations of eight energies to use to describe ALL possible Taijiquan applications, so please do not be too limiting on how they are defined.

Dan

HI DAN,
AS ALWAYS, YOUR POST IS SO WONDERFUL AND TRANSPARENT TO READ. IT SAVE ME A TRIP TO MY TAIJI PRINCIPLE LAB AND MY LOVEY SAID THANK YOU.

WITH MUCH ADMIRES

CIAO,
yslim

[DPasek]

...he concludes, however, by showing a simple open hand strike as another possible manifestation of this energy. He explains this by saying that Split means "quick," "short," "twisting" and/or "going in different directions."

Audi (& others),

I do not have the video that you refer to, so I can only guess at what Master Yang may be referring to with the ‘quick’ ‘short’ ‘simple open hand strike’ as an example of liejin. It is possible to apply torque to an opponent with a snappy one hand strike (e.g. bending the recipient backwards due to his feet remaining stationary) that may not manifest if done slowly (e.g. the recipient being able to step or root without being bent backwards – i.e. while maintaining their ‘central equilibrium’). Could this be what is being demonstrated? Done snappily the strike could perhaps produce liejin whereas the same application done more slowly may perhaps produce anjin instead?

Some people may have a clear understanding of one manifestation of one of the eight Taijiquan energies, and may attempt to extrapolate that as the definition of the energy without realizing that it is only one manifestation of that energy. So, for liejin, the whirlpool or flywheel analogies illustrate two possibilities for this energy, but may not define the energy. Both the whirlpool and the flywheel can produce torque, but so can other applications (e.g. Yang’s simple open hand strike).

A fairly common example of the problem of attempting to generalize a definition from the understanding of one example of that energy is when someone defines pengjin as upward energy. To me this is inaccurate and would be equivalent to someone seeing a ball bouncing along the ground and assuming that balls can only bounce upwards. Of course, we know that balls can bounce in all directions, and someone observing a ball bouncing in a racquetball game would not make that mistake. In TJQ we want to maintain energy in six (all) directions (up/down, left/right, forward/back) like a properly inflated sphere. But a TJQ practitioner is typically standing, and the ‘rooting’ provided by the feet against the ground typically provides the rebounding energy of the practitioner, thus the resulting energy is typically upwards. But to me, pengjin’s rebounding energy is not in itself restricted to upwards, but rather capable of manifesting in any direction. Although typically expressed upwards, pengjin is not restricted to upwards. For example, a TJQ practitioner with their back against a wall could peng outwards if using the contact between their back and the wall as their ‘root’ to rebound the energy from. Since we are not spheres and have articulated joints, we can also redirect the rebounding energy somewhat so that it does not necessarily rebound directly opposite the direction of the incoming force (or directly opposite the ‘root’) like it would for a spherical ball.

Since I have joined this thread’s discussion, I should also provide my understanding for caijin, zhoujin, and kaojin.

The typical contact points for TJQ are the hands/wrists (or feet), so to me, zhoujin is simply energy expressed through the elbow (or knee), and kaojin is simply energy expressed through the torso (shoulder, hip, chest, back). For ylsim this would be what ILC refers to as changes in ‘section’.

Since we are not spheres and have the ability to grasp objects, to me caijin is energy expressed through grabbing. To me this does not imply a specific direction as is often implied (e,g, ‘pull down’), although a downward direction is typical since the ‘root’ of our arms is the shoulder, and since our hands are the ‘tip’ of the arm, energy from the hand tends to start rather high through the shoulder and be manifested typically in a downward direction. If the term ‘pluck’ is used to translate ‘cai’, then it fits this non-directionality better since someone can pluck fruit from a tree in a downward manner, but also pluck a flower from below in an upward direction. To affect a recipient, a grab to merely hold them does not really convey the energy of caijin, so the action of jerking or pulling quickly is often used in describing this energy. But to me, the primary quality is the ability to grab.

Dan

[Audi]

Hi Dan,

I think we have similar views on these issues.

I do not have the video that you refer to, so I can only guess at what Master Yang may be referring to with the ‘quick’ ‘short’ ‘simple open hand strike’ as an example of liejin. It is possible to apply torque to an opponent with a snappy one hand strike (e.g. bending the recipient backwards due to his feet remaining stationary) that may not manifest if done slowly (e.g. the recipient being able to step or root without being bent backwards – i.e. while maintaining their ‘central equilibrium’). Could this be what is being demonstrated? Done snappily the strike could perhaps produce liejin whereas the same application done more slowly may perhaps produce anjin instead?

I shy away from focusing on torque, because many of our form postures require it and yet they are not described as instances of Liejin. For instance, our Ward Off Left, Ward Off Right, Roll Back, Wild Horse Parts Mane, and Apparent Closure all require applying energy in opposite directions, and yet we do not focus on Liejin in any of them.

I have been taught the differences in the eight Jins through descriptions of typical usages, typical body shape, applications, and the quality of the energy felt by the opponent. I was taught that the last was an internal matter and was the final determiner. My understanding at this point is that Lie describes both a typical motion and a kind of movement or energy quality. The closest expression I can think of in English that matches the type of motion described to me is "snap"; however, I cannot say that "Lie" means "snap." At best, there is an overlap in the feel of the two. If we think in terms of spheres, perhaps Liejin refers to Jin that emphasize sudden rapid rotation of the sphere to twist the opponent or to twist energy into the opponent.

As I understand it, liejin essentially includes any qinna applications (the ‘push/pull’ which applies torque), whether applied slowly or quickly. [Rending, tearing, snapping, wringing, ripping etc; any action that uses points of application to apply toque]

Master Yang seems to differentiate between Lie 挒, Zhua 抓, and Qin 擒. I think "Zhua" refers to grabbing (and twisting) such as we do with the left hand at the end of Fist Under Elbow. "Qin" seems more to do with seizing control of the persons energy, such as what we usually demonstrate with the right hand in Needle at Sea Bottom. Done abruptly, the energy of Needle at Sea Bottom would, I think, change into Lie.

I don’t want to be critical, but I want to caution against defining the eight energies of Taijiquan too narrowly – we only have combinations of eight energies to use to describe ALL possible Taijiquan applications, so please do not be too limiting on how they are defined.

I agree with the thrust of your point; however, I think that the Eight Energies are merely the basic Tai Chi energies, rather than the only Tai Chi energies that exist. Also, in addition to talking about "energies," we can also classify techniques generally into strikes, kicks, throws, grabs, and Qinna (traps?).

Take care,
Audi