Tai Chi history

Re: Tai Chi history

Postby Audi » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:19 pm

Hi UniTaichi,

I am in agreement with what you written here, in my previous post and now. What I was trying to express was, the Original Taijiquan when it was founded by Zhang San Fung or even earlier, is from Pure Daoist Concept. Like what we agreed above statement, TJQ is being explained through multiple perspective and influence nowadays. My idea of influence might be different which is why I asked for your definition. Mine definition is that these ''influence'' is only based on written expression which the writers of TJQ QuanPu (books) saw similarities of expression in other school. Egs given by you in the B.Davis and the Treatise.


I think it is fine to credit Zhang Sanfeng ("San Fung") as the founder of Taijiquan. Many people do. But many other people do not. Even among the people that do, I think most also recognize that many of the foundational classics of Taijiquan quote or reference frameworks outside of Daoism. To me this is not merely an influence that crept in later, it is a basic source of the art itself.

On TCM. TCM is also an original Daoist practice, so linking it to TJQ is only right and natural.


From what I understand, TCM did not originate with Daoism, even though Daoism absorbed many of its tenets. You can reject Daoism and still practice TCM.

Since the post to date no one have taken the little experiment, so I will give some examples and will start with below;

'' abandoning self and following the others''


In the phrase, I see that it actually encompasses the essence of Dao, which is Harmony. Below are the reference from DaoDeJing verses. (pls note that it is not the whole verse)
V.31 : Center of Dao is Harmony.
V.45 : Dao allows things to happen. She shapes event as they come.
V.50 : Dao gives himself up to whatever the moment brings. He doesn't think about his action (Mindless)
V.51 : Guiding without interfering.
V.56 : Be like the Dao. It gives itself up continually.
V.57 : Follow the Dao and stop trying to control.
V.66 : If you want to lead the people, you must learn how to follow them.


The verses you quote are interesting philosophy and perhaps quite helpful; however, they are not exactly how I understand or use "abandoning self and following the others." It would take many words to describe, but I actually used this precise phrase recently in my teaching as concrete instruction in what to do in performing our basic Ward Off application.

For me, the usefulness was precisely from using a moral injunction to give specific incite into the method of the application. The moral aspects of what you have quoted above are different and therefore would imply something different about how to perform the application.

Taiji is born from wuji;it is the mother of yin and yang. If it moves, it divides; if it is at rest, it unites.


V.42 : Dao give birth to one, one to two, two to three, three to All things.
BDavis quote Zhou Dunyi which is Neo-Confucian a school which combines the Dao and confucian school, so its no surprises if she see the link.


Here again, I would practice differently according to whether I felt Taiji or the "Dao" was more important. For me Taiji and its relationship to yin and yang are pervasive aspects of how I practice. I cannot recall using the Dao like this.

For me, the other quotes you posted are also aimed at quite concrete aspects of my practice. Accepting your paraphrases as their meaning would require that I change what I do. I won't say that what I do is better than what any one else does, but is certainly quite different from how some people practice.

Submit now before timeout


I have the same issues :cry: One way I try to solve it is to press "Preview" often.

Take care,
Audi
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Re: Tai Chi history

Postby UniTaichi » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:43 am

Hi Audi,

This thread is another good example of talking passed each other. I did not in any of my post suggest anybody to teach using only Daoist or Daodejing concept. I have already states that using a multiple perspective from Confucian, Neo-Conf, Sunzi, Buddhist, even the Bible is ok with me as long as it makes learning easier. I do not know how many times I need to repeat that. :?

I think it is fine to credit Zhang Sanfeng ("San Fung") as the founder of Taijiquan. Many people do. But many other people do not. Even among the people that do, I think most also recognize that many of the foundational classics of Taijiquan quote or reference frameworks outside of Daoism.


I did not exactly credit ZSF as the founder, what I quoted is below ;

What I was trying to express was, the Original Taijiquan when it was founded by Zhang San Fung or even earlier, is from Pure Daoist Concept.


The Daoist concept started 7000 yrs ago from Yijing thru Daodejing and Taijiquan is just a part of the whole Dao teaching as it is TCM. Nowhere did I insist that everyone must use Dao to teach TCM or TJQ.

Anyway, thanks for the tip. I do that but somehow still disappear.

I will end my participation here. Thanks you.

Cheers,
UniTaichi
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Re: Tai Chi history

Postby ChiDragon » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:36 pm

UniTaichi wrote:I will end my participation here. Thanks you.

Cheers,
UniTaichi


Hi, UniTaichi

Please don't stop yet! There is no end in learning as they say. You nickname had indicated that you have high hope in acquiring the knowledge about Tai Chi. "Tai Chi" here is not about Taichi Quan. It is about yin/yang. I think that is what the OP was asking for.

BTW This the original statement from Yijing(易經):
无极生太极,太极生两仪,两仪生四象,四象生八卦。:
Wuji engendered Taiji, Taiji engender yin/ynag, Yin/yang engender four bigrams, and four bigram engender 8 trigrams.

The DaoDeChing was derived from the Yijing:
道生一,一生二,二生三,三生万物。
V.42 : Dao give birth to one, one to two, two to three, three to All things.


Here is the correlation between the DaoDeChing and the Yijing.
道生一,Dao is the origin as one or Taiji
一生二,Taiji engender yin/ynag
二生三,Yin/yang engender trigrams
三生万物。Trigrams engender all things(the 64 octagrams)
A deep discussion requires explicit details for a good comprehension of a complex subject.
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