Conscious Movement

Postby chris » Tue May 09, 2006 2:29 am

I mean that you would find yourself functionally if not literally paralyzed by the cacophony of images.
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Postby ShowHong » Tue May 09, 2006 5:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
<B>Gee, you were doing so well up to that point and I was agreeing with most of what you had to say! Then you suddenly go all Mike Sigman on us:

Show Hong wrote:
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought this was a discussion board?!

Show-Hong
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Postby Pamela » Tue May 09, 2006 2:37 pm

Hello Chris,

Ahhh, thanks for explaining your statement Image

I see what you're saying...but I think, that it is just a matter of neglect and sensitivity.
As humans in general we tend to take some senses for granted, whilst overusing/overcompensating with another sense.
If we closed the sense of our eyes vision,I think we would discover that the sense of hearing can be just as overwhelming...or find that it is just as full of hearing material as our eyes perceive as vision material. I think that is simply a matter of habit...and as adaptable creatures, we could change our habits. As someone who has sight, then goes blind, will adapt over time.
or a right handed person, who find his/her left hand quite clumsy, with practice, could change.
Though at first there would be a distinct feeling that we are limited, paralyzed in movement.

...What do you think? Am I one the same track as you here? Or apples and oranges?
Please let me know. Image

Thank you,
Best wishes,
Pamela
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Postby chris » Tue May 09, 2006 8:30 pm

Apples and oranges. If vision and touch/hearing were equivalent, we would not be having this discussion.

Once you've moved first, you cannot "move last arrive first". Directing your gaze is a move. Listening is not a move.
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Postby Pamela » Tue May 09, 2006 9:29 pm

Hi Chris,

Ahhh...I had to strain for this one Image But think I understand what you are saying now. So, if I were blinded, I could still do Taichi...but without sensitivity in the hands to listen/touch, sight would be inefficient in itself as a tool for TaiChi? Is this what you are saying?

Hence, touch/sensitivity of listening is very necessary...yes, I see that point. Yes, I would agree.

I guess the distinction/idea I was playing with earlier, am fidgetting with still now, was/is...does "listening" DEPEND only upon the hands?
Is there no other way of perceiving/listening beyond the senses of vision or hands touch...to "hear" the opponents intention...?

What do you think?

Thank you,
Best wishes,
Pamela
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Postby chris » Wed May 10, 2006 2:02 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Pamela:
<B>So, if I were blinded, I could still do Taichi...but without sensitivity in the hands to listen/touch, sight would be inefficient in itself as a tool for TaiChi? Is this what you are saying?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am saying that the act of looking restricts your options in a way that listening does not.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Is there no other way of perceiving/listening beyond the senses of vision or hands touch...to "hear" the opponents intention...?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When does anyone accomplish exactly what they intended? I want my computer to transform into a supermodel with an ice cream cone. Wish me luck!
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Postby bamboo leaf » Wed May 10, 2006 2:31 am

(Hence, touch/sensitivity of listening is very necessary...yes, I see that point. Yes, I would agree.)

I think some of this is very confused.

I see this a lot when pushing with other people it¡¦s a common mistake based on incorrect or maybe incomplete ideas.
The idea if listening or tingjin is actually what it means being able to tell when the jin is present.

The idea of jin corresponds to the ideation of movement not the movement itself. He starts late but arrives first is only possible if one is able to know the direction and time of an action. Something that is not possible after the action has reached a point where it becomes a physical manifestation.

Sensing might make more sense then listening. It goes back to the idea of empty and full. Empty of intention and full of intention. Being empty allows the body to receive and respond to outer forces in a very natural way. The loutes stem is cut but the root remains refers to the idea that the mind holds the body very loosely with out intent.

Fullness is intent with out tension just the thought of doing an action, that precedes the actually action. We call this yi or mind. Understood in this way its possible to understand how some one can train to listen (sense another¡¦s intent) changing as required with an aware mind.

It is also possible to extend ones own intent into another person, weather they can feel it or not their body will tend to react to this intent if its developed. You follow the reaction, later there are other things that one can do with it.

The eyes are what directs the intent or yi, closing the eyes or looking off to the side to listen more is really a mistake and takes away some key tools used in this process.

(So, if I were blinded, I could still do Taichi...but without sensitivity in the hands to listen/touch,)

There would be some things that you could do but others that you could not, it would severely limit the upper levels of the practice.




[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 05-09-2006).]
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Postby Louis Swaim » Wed May 10, 2006 3:28 am

Greetings,

As I mentioned above, the earliest occurrence of the tingjin concept in taijiquan documents that I've found is in Wu Ruqing's text, "Taijiquan lun," probably written in the mid-1800s. Here, the idea isn't expressed as a compound (tingjin) but as a transitive verb phrase, 'ting ren jin' (listen to the other's jin). It seems fully in acccord with the tingjin concept in more modern taiji writings, and is probably a good indication that it was already a component of oral teaching. Here's my translation of the lines where it appears.

"When you engage with an opponent, the hands first employ strength, only to listen to the other's jin. But you must follow the other, not yourself. You must know the other, but not allow the other to know you."

I've taken "shou xian zhuo li" to mean "the hands first employ strength," but it is qualified in this statement by the word "only" beginning the next phrase. Wile translates "shou xian zhuo li" here as "hands first make contact." (Lost Classics, p. 47) Yang Jwing-ming translates it as "the hands must first feel the force." These are slight differences, but none really change the essential meaning.

If anyone knows of earlier instances of tingjin than this one, please let me know.

Take care,
Louis



[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 05-09-2006).]
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Postby Louis Swaim » Wed May 10, 2006 3:42 am

Here is the Chinese for the Wu Ruqing lines translated above.

ÖÁÓßÈ˽»ÊÖ£¬ÊÖÏÈÖøÁ¦£¬Ö»Â ÈË„Å£¬„ÕÒªÓÉÈË£¬²»ÒªÓɼº£»„ÕÒªÖªÈË£¬²»ÒªÊ¹ÈËÖª¼º¡£

Louis
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed May 10, 2006 3:15 pm

Well...
I don't know a lot about translating Chinese, we all know that, and I sure am not an expert on any aspect of the use or history of tingjin.
All I can say is that my take on "listening" to my opponent is not really all that terribly complicated.
That, of course, most likely means I'm totally unclear on the concept.
However, "keep it simple" is a rule I live by and so strive for it in all things.
To me, when I'm facing an opponent (which in modern terms means when my push hands partner and I are working together) I don't imagine for one second that I'm sending out chi feelers or non-physical lines of "sense" to feel or listen to my opponents "jin", all I'm doing is watching, feeling, doing my best with the senses I do actually possess and understand to figure out what he is trying to do to find and push against my center so that he can knock me off balance.
In my personal, humble opinion the idea of "tingjin" which I take to mean literally as "sense where my oponent is sending his energy" is nothing esoteric, it's not tied to any one of my physical senses but all of them and it's certainly not any kind of mystic mumbo-jumbo that gives me a supernatural way to feel every thought or intention in my oponents body and mind.
All I believe the term to mean is that with much practice I will begin to be able to use all of my natural senses, sight, sound, smell, taste and touch, to be able to recognize when my opponent begins to move his energy against me and, once my experience reaches the level of it, I will be able to sense what he intends to do with that energy and counter it before he can make it effective by moving myself in such a way as to nullify the effect, or redirect the effect, of his energy movement.
"When my opponent moves, how do I get there first"? It's really quite simple. He begins to move, I sense with my normal, every day senses that the particular type of movement he is making is usually used for a certain purpose, I know that purpose, recognize it through experience then I move in a fashion that experience has taught me will take me out of his energies way, or intercept his energy and redirect it for my own purpose.

I can think of an analogy more suitable to modern times.
Driving a car.
You watch the road ahead, you watch the other cars, you listen to the road sounds, the engine sounds, you feel through the steering wheel the effect the road is having on your tires, you smell all the ordinary smells, you taste all the ordinary tastes, and when any of those senses tell you that something is not right, your experience and instinct dictate the response that you will make to avoid the bad things that may be happening.
If you see another driver swerving erratically, your experience tells you to give them a wide berth and so you steer your vehicle out of their path. If you hear the sounds of screeching tires and the car in front of you suddenly is stopping, you either slam on the brakes or turn the vehicle to miss them or both. If you smell burning oil and see smoke coming out from under your hood, you pull over to the side of the road and turn off your engine.
These are all things that require "tingjin", they require you to use your senses and experience to recognize something is wrong and react favorably to it.
Same thing in TCC, only you are sensing out what your opponent is doing and you use your experience to judge the proper response and then make it.

Bob
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Postby Louis Swaim » Wed May 10, 2006 3:26 pm

Greetings Bob,

You had me at "keep it simple," and I agree with everything you've said.


Good post!

--Louis
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Postby chris » Wed May 10, 2006 9:01 pm

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The eyes are what directs the intent or yi, closing the eyes or looking off to the side to listen more is really a mistake and takes away some key tools used in this process.</font>


Are you familiar with the rope-a-dope or 捕获愚笨的人? Is that a strategy, tactic or mistake? And who is more susceptible, a blind person or a "deaf" person?

[This message has been edited by chris (edited 05-10-2006).]
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Postby bamboo leaf » Thu May 11, 2006 3:20 am

You missed the point but that¡¦s okay. Not to much more to say on this.
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Postby Louis Swaim » Thu May 11, 2006 5:36 pm

Greetings Show-Hong,

Have you had a chance to check out the Wu Ruqing lines regarding ting? Does this lend any perspective to the question you raised, whether "the tingjin as we know it is really part of Taichi?"

I'm interested in your thoughts.

Take care,
Louis
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Postby Louis Swaim » Fri May 12, 2006 4:52 pm

Greetings,

Also. . .

If anyone cares to weigh in regarding the phrase shou xian zhuoli (ÊÖÏÈÖøÁ¦), I would appreciate it. The common meaning of zhuoli here is "to employ strength." But Wile translates it as "make contact," and Yang Jwing-ming as "feel the force."

Comments?

Thanks,
Louis


[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 05-12-2006).]
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