Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby ChiDragon » Thu May 04, 2017 11:59 pm

Greetings!
Tai Chi practice influence your health by boosting the energy level in the body. However, the question is where was all the energy come from? IMO, you should have a clear understanding about Mitochondria and how they produce the energy for the body to function. By knowing something about the mitochondria, you will understand how Tai Chi influence the health of the body. You probably will appreciate more in your next Tai Chi practice.

Here is something for the introduction of mitochondria:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... ealth.aspx

Happy reading!
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby DPasek » Fri May 05, 2017 1:03 pm

ChiDragon wrote:Greetings!
Tai Chi practice influence your health by boosting the energy level in the body. However, the question is where was all the energy come from? IMO, you should have a clear understanding about Mitochondria and how they produce the energy for the body to function. By knowing something about the mitochondria, you will understand how Tai Chi influence the health of the body. You probably will appreciate more in your next Tai Chi practice.

Here is something for the introduction of mitochondria:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... ealth.aspx

Happy reading!

Since there is no evidence (that I am aware of) that the mitochondria in healthy Taijiquan practitioners is any different than in healthy non-practitioners, information on the mitochondria probably does not help us.

CD’s post seems to be based on the assumption that there is an increased ATP level in Taijiquan practitioners compared to non-practitioners. There is actually some evidence that even a presumed increased in ATP levels does not increase strength or endurance. Therefore, CD’s hypothesis appears, at this time, to be incorrect. See the 2008 Sports Nutrition article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253504/
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby ChiDragon » Fri May 05, 2017 3:28 pm

Greetings!
We are here to share our knowledge and experiences. Let's share them and understand them before we defy or deny them. All my claims are strictly based on scientific facts and common sense. Shall we keep this discussion in a friendly manner. So, we will have a good start. Thanks!

First of all, I don't expect taken supplements will have the same biological effect on the human body as compared to Tai Chi practice. There is a drastic biological effect which taken place in a Tai Chi body. As far as I know, DPasek have not acquired any jin in his body from practice according to his own description. Hence, he may not have the same biological experience as I have. I think that is why our points of view are in conflict here.

The purpose of this post is to introduce how does the mitochondria generate the body energy with oxygen; and to show why the abdominal breathing is so important in Tai Chi practice.
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby DPasek » Fri May 05, 2017 4:44 pm

CD (James Lee),

People used to think that the earth was flat “based on common sense.” That does not make it true. I think that unsupported speculations can be misleading when they are presented as you have. Please present credible support for your ideas.

You are not the only person to speculate along these lines; those involved in the study that I linked to likely expected to see positive results, rather than the negative results that were the result of their experiments. The publication that printed the research likely also found it to be something that others in the field would be interested in, as many others in the field of sport nutrition possibly think that the idea of increased ATP levels improving athletic performance could be plausible.

Unfortunately, the results indicate otherwise. If you can find more recent articles that show different results and that allow you to continue your speculation, then please post links to them. I would love to have reliable evidence for something special and significant about the practice of Taijiquan. Also appealing is the idea that “Qi” could be explained scientifically. Unfortunately, I have not yet seen a convincing explanation. At present, a connection with ATP, as appealing as it may sound (energy, Qi, ATP...), seems unlikely to be true.

The following article is by someone who seems to have a better understanding of science that you do, but there is more information needed before conclusions can be reliably drawn:
http://www.cojujo.com/physical-activity-1/2017/3/7/yoga-and-tai-chi-physiology-notes
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby ChiDragon » Fri May 05, 2017 5:22 pm

I had read this article before. It is nothing new to me. It only tells a small fraction of what I am going to be presenting here. I can go into it with more explicit details about the glucose generating the 32 ATP. BTW That is my whole purpose of the OP.
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby DPasek » Fri May 05, 2017 6:54 pm

Have you by any chance read an article by Wang et al., 1988? I have not been able to locate the article in a brief search, but if you have seen it then please post a link to it. A reference citing the study claims that they found that Qigong and Taijiquan increase blood ATP levels. Even though this would be interesting (and would be supportive of your hypothesis), it still probably does not address the question of whether an increased level of available ATP actually increases performance characteristics (like strength and endurance). From my perspective, that is the question that currently needs clarification.
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby ChiDragon » Fri May 05, 2017 7:38 pm

DPasek,
I don't know if this is what you are looking for:
http://yang-sheng.com/?p=3216
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby DPasek » Fri May 05, 2017 8:00 pm

Reference 9 is it, I think. Although the research appears to show that qigong masters can increase their ATP levels during the practice of their qigong, by itself it is not very helpful. It is interesting, however.
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby yslim » Fri May 05, 2017 8:17 pm

ChiDragon wrote:Greetings!

First of all, I don't expect taken supplements will have the same biological effect on the human body as compared to Tai Chi practice. There is a drastic biological effect which taken place in a Tai Chi body. As far as I know, DPasek have not acquired any jin in his body from practice according to his own description. Hence, he may not have the same biological experience as I have. I think that is why our points of view are in conflict here.

The purpose of this post is to introduce how does the mitochondria generate the body energy with oxygen; and to show why the abdominal breathing is so important in Tai Chi practice.


Good Morning CD
All that you said above is alternative facts for the facts why and how we practice Tai Chi Chuan. Can we take it to practice at the parks that could improve our Tai Chi chuan?

I need better fact to improve my Tai Chi Chuan. Thanks
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby ChiDragon » Fri May 05, 2017 9:13 pm

DPasek wrote:Reference 9 is it, I think. Although the research appears to show that qigong masters can increase their ATP levels during the practice of their qigong, by itself it is not very helpful. It is interesting, however.

The test was only for during the practice at the time. However, it was not the test that was done before he become a Qigong master. It would be helpful if it did then. Perhaps not. It would be interesting if the amount of mitochondria in his body was measured before and after he becomes a Qigong master.
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby ChiDragon » Sat May 06, 2017 5:21 am

DPasek,
Are you familiar with cell respiration, muscle contraction and abdominal breathing. What I am asking are as follows:
1. What is happening in cell respiration?
2. What are the requirements for muscle to contract?
3. When performing abdominal breathing, what was taken place inside the body? I meant what are the reactions of the diaphragm, lung and abdomen during breathing?

It would help me a lot to explain the increase of body energy concept if you are familiar with the items above in advance.
If not, we could go over each and be familiarized with them. So, we won't have any misunderstanding or communication problem. If you think it is a waste of time, then, I will try my best to present my case. Thank you!

CD
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby ChiDragon » Sat May 06, 2017 11:11 pm

Greetings!
Tai Chi Quan has a great influence on the health on the human body. Therefore, to understand the function of the human body is important to see why and how Tai Chi improves our health holistically. The human body function relies on its own generated energy. Thus the human body is an energy generating machine. So, what generate the energy in the human body?
There are small tiny granules inside a body cell called mitochondria. The mitochondria use the glucose and oxygen from the bloodstream and manufacture a biochemical energy called ATP(adenosine triphosphate). The energetic process is called Cell Respiration.

One might ask how does Tai Chi Quan was connected into the Cell Respiration? Well, it is because the big demand of oxygen which required for manufacturing the ATP. The oxygen is required to decompose the glucose into ATP and heat plus the waste products such as carbon dioxide and water. Here is a simple energy formula to help us to understand Cell Respiration.

Glucose + O2 ===> H2O + CO2 + heat + energy

Let's say we knew nothing about the formula but go ahead and do an analysis by making an assumption. If energy was came from the foods we eat and the oxygen we breathe from the air, then, can we assume that by eating more foods and breathe more oxygen will give us more energy. The answer is yes and no. The former is a no is because by eating more foods alone without oxygen will not generate the energy we need. The latter is yes is because as long as foods are provided and stored as glycogen in the liver by demand to be converted into glucose. Then the glucose is converted into energy by oxygen.

By common sense and a little mathematical skill, we'll see that the glucose is a constant source, so to speak, until it was depleted. However, we have to treat oxygen, a little bit different, as a variable factor. It is because oxygen is a dependant of breathing. It is a controlled factor by the breather. The oxygen supply can be completing cut off or supplied with a variable amount. In other words, a poor health person breathes less due to a breathing problem. It will not produce enough energy for the body to function. A mediocre person breathes barely enough to survive but can be sick anytime under severe situations. A healthy person always breathe enough to have a normal life. A Tai Chi practitioner always breathe more than enough to stay in better health because the performance of abdominal breathing.

Please be patience, there is more to come.....
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby ChiDragon » Sun May 07, 2017 7:20 pm

Chemical formula:
Glucose + O2 ===> H2O + CO2 + heat + energy

Let's concentrate on the energy and rewrite the formula just for simplicity.
Let's define the parameters are as follows:
E = energy
G = glucose
O2 = oxygen

Simplified Energy formula:
E = O2 + G

For the human body to function, the energy E has to be present at all times. We eat three times a day to obtain the glucose from the food as the source of energy. So, we can treat G as a constant. Now, how to treat O2 is a different story. It is because that the energy level depends on the amount of oxygen that we breathe in. The amount of O2 uptake is strictly relied on breathing. Fortunately, we have the full control in our breathing. There are few conditions existed in our breathing habits as follows:
1. One could breathe less than normal
2. One could breathe normally
3. One could breathe more than normal
4. One could breathe much more than normal

These conditions determine the various amount of oxygen which dominate the energy level. The first three conditions are very common among the people. The depth of the breath is the control factor for the amount of air entering the lung. The last condition is adopted by the practitioners of Tai Chi, Qigong and martial artists. It is the abdominal breathing method. Besides the depth of the breathing, it also control the duration of the inhalation and exhalation. I would like to call it the Ultimate Method of Breathing(UMB) is because of its uniqueness of retaining the oxygen inside the lung for a longer time than normal. The retention of oxygen in the lung will allow, more time, for the red blood cells to collect as much as possible; and deliver to the cells throughout the body. Finally, the cells have more than enough oxygen to decompose the glucose into the ATP energy.

How do the cells use the oxygen to convert the glucose into ATP? It was done by a chemical process called the Cell Respiration. It needs to be investigated chemically to see why oxygen is so important in the process. BTW If one understand Cell Respiration, then, one will know why Tai Chi practitioner has a high energy level at all times and never felt fatigue. Let me give a clue for now. It is to keep the glucose from turning into acid to avoid fatigue.
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby Audi » Mon May 08, 2017 3:04 am

Hi everyone,

I think there may be something interesting at the bottom of this, but saying that more ATP and more oxygen is always good for health is like saying more batteries, more gas, and bigger gas lines are always better for a car. ATP is just an energy transport system. How the body produces transfers, stores, and consumes energy is a complex system.

According to my understanding, blood oxygen is normally near 100% in healthy people, and excess oxygen intake can be harmful. Similarly, we need food and certain nutrients and vitamins to gain energy that can be stored in the body, but more food, more nutrients, and more vitamins do not necessarily produce better health.

I have no problem saying that Tai Chi may in some way make this system run more smoothly, but I think that attributing this simply to more oxygen or more ATP is too simplistic.

Speaking more holistically, I think that the concept of jin I have been taught is not reducible to any chemical process, change in body type, or change in your perceived energy level. We want our Tai Chi to improve our health and make our bodies more robust, but this is not because we have acquired more jin, according to my understanding. An analogy can be made to the way a country's economy works. Simply putting more goods on the market, making more people work, consuming more goods, or putting more money in circulation does not necessarily make a good economy, even though these things can all be indicators of a good economy.

As for abdominal breathing itself, although we do advocate it, we put much more stress on what we consider natural breathing. The trick for us is not to try to adopt some new type of breathing technique, but rather to extend the breathing we use when relaxed and comfortable to all the movements of the form. In addition, the Ten Essentials teach us some requirements of the body shape that will facilitate this relaxed breathing. We advise against trying to use any artificial control of the breath. What we teach, everyone already knows how to do and already does when fully relaxed, such as when sleeping. Our training is not so much about mastering something new, but about extending something easy and comfortable through the rigorous requirements of the form.

Take care,
Audi
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Re: Tai Chi Practitioners should know about Mitochondria.

Postby DPasek » Mon May 08, 2017 6:10 pm

Audi,

Thanks for posting. Although James Lee (CD) does not seem to understand my points, it is good to know that someone else reading this discussion understands.

CD has not reliably shown that the “gas” [ATP] in the automobile is a problem, or that changing it in some way would significantly improve the short or long term performance of the vehicle, yet when he does not convince me that the car can be improved with more or better gas, he wants to talk about gasoline exploration, drilling, refining, pipelines... To me it would be a waste of my time!

If a car does not run well when the gas tank is not empty, then topping off the tank likely will not make any difference. Conversely, topping off the tank of a car that runs well will not improve the performance of that car.
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