Seating the Wrist vs. Puffing the Wrist

Postby Louis Swaim » Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:43 pm

Greetings Audi,

I really like your analysis here, and especially like your translation of guwan as "activate the wrists." That works quite well.

Take care,
Louis



[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 08-09-2008).]
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Postby JerryKarin » Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:43 pm

I agree. How the wrist sits is intimately related to elbows, shoulders, backbone. If shoulders and elbows aren't low, the wrist cannot get the right lift. Once you get all your ducks in a row, getting the wrist right yields a sensation.
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Postby Yuri_Snisarenko » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:48 am

Audi,

Yes, what you are saying about the right curves is quite important. Sufficient to recall the following classical lines: ¡§qi goes through out the body like through a pearl with nine curves¡¨ and at the same time ¡§seek straight in curves¡¨. So I see the idea behind your post. However I would like to try extending it a bit. I think you witnessed the following situation when a master is standing still in warding off posture and you cannot move his hand. I am not sure about whether ¡§jin flow¡¨ could be involved there, but nevertheless li dian (at least in our line) definitely (based on my understanding) can be involved there. So ¡§li dian¡¨ is not only body movement methods in my book but primarily ¡§mind method¡¨ (yi fa). Shifting li dian on a couple of inches can change the meaning of the posture from defending to offending and vise versa.
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Postby JerryKarin » Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:02 pm

Yes I think he did say li zhang, stand palm. That's probably it.
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Postby Yin Peixiong » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:40 pm

Hi, everyone,

Using Audi's translation of Wang's passage, the first part reads, "As a matter of fact, in seating the wrists, it is easy for the shaping of the hand position to become rigid." Why should this be true? If one is practicing "zuo wan" correctly, and Fu Chongwen gives us an excellent summary following Posture 2, then the wrist will not become rigid.

I think Wang makes this statement because a practitioner, before he has attained a high degree of proficiency with "zuo wan", can be led astray just by the term "seating the wrist", which has a physical connotation. He suggests "gu wan" because this term has less physical connotation and can more easily lead the practitioner to focus on "jin".

On a related matter, Posture 32 is the first heel kick. Fu's Important Point 3 states: use the heel as the force point "li dian". Is there any reason for Fu to change from "jin dian" to "li dian"? Can this not be called the seating of the ankle? Finally, with the foot and lower leg in the same direction, is this not "an"?

Arthur

[This message has been edited by Yin Peixiong (edited 08-11-2008).]
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Postby Yuri_Snisarenko » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:47 am

As a matter of fact, the Fu family uses the both terms in their teaching – jin dian and li dian. I didn’t ask the official version on the meaning of the terms but to me they have different meanings. And li, of course, here is not a zhuo li (coarse clumsy strength) that prohibited in taijiquan but LI that is a part of “nei san he” (three inner harmony) known in neijia. And YCF style has its own nei san he that doesn’t differ mush from the commonly used one. As far as jin is concerned – it’s not a secret that different branches of Yang style may have not got the same understanding of this notion. So let’s just let each branch believe what they want to believe and follow what they want to follow ;^)))
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Postby Louis Swaim » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:29 am

Greetings Arthur,

I think what is going on in that particular “Important Point” on Kick with Heel is that Fu is merely drawing a distinction between the intended contact point in Deng Jiao (Heel Kick) vs. the contact point in Fen Jiao (Separate Feet). The term jindian is more of a proprietary taiji term. Here, the term Fu used—zhuolidian—is not a technical term of art, but just refers to “the point where force is applied.” The zhuo here, of course, is not the zhuo meaning crude strength, but a different character, here meaning “apply.” Zhuoli can refer to a physical application of force, or to applying or exerting oneself mentally. The neo-Confucian philosopher Zhu Xi, for example, often used the term zhuoli to refer to an exertion of mental or moral effort. So in my view Fu was simply making a distinction about the focus of intent for the different types of kicks.

Take care,
Louis
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Postby Yuri_Snisarenko » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:09 am

I think Louis most probably is right here. I hope the following bit from the description of right warding off from the Fu family book titled "杨式太极拳教练法" (pp. 15, 16) will bring a bit clarity about all these notions or at least let us to see the issue from another angle:

Here it goes: 《 右臂向前推出,力点放在腕背。》 (p.15) and on the following page:
《 7.要重视“坐腕”。腕不能松软无力,腕一松,手背必 然 没有掤劲,容易被对方拿住手腕而被制,但也不 能 用拙劲。 》

I would translate it as:

“Right hand is pushing forward, li dian is actualized in the back of the wrist (or “the strength is applied through the back of the wrist” - as one sees it)”.

And the second part about zuowan: “One should take seriously [the condition] of zuowan. The wrist shouldn’t be laxly relaxed without strength within. If the wrist is relaxed (in such a way) then undoubtedly peng jin will be missing and an opponent will be able easily to seize and control our wrist and hand. But [don’t forget that] you must not use coarse clumsy strength!”

I’d love to hear others’ translations as well.


Speaking about li in this context I would like to put forward one line from the most known taiji classic - Wang Zongyue’s treatise - for everyone’s consideration :

有力打无力,手慢让手快,是皆先天自然之能,非 关 学力而有为也!

I am not a professional translator but taking in consideration the parallels between the first “you” and the first “li” with the second “you” and the second “li”, I would suggest the following translation:

“To have LI and beat those who haven’t it [when] slow hands subdue speedy hands is an ability that comes from inborn faculty. This ability has nothing to do with the situation when one studies LI and only then possess it.”



[This message has been edited by Yuri_Snisarenko (edited 08-12-2008).]
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Postby JerryKarin » Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:19 pm

In that last couple sentences, two situations are introduced: strong overcoming weak and quick hand overcoming the slow. 'These are both innate, natural abilities and not something arrived at from studying strength'.
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Postby Louis Swaim » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:34 pm

Gosh, I'm having no luck getting hanzi into this forum today! --Louis


[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 08-12-2008).]
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Postby Yuri_Snisarenko » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:51 pm

Thanks for the comment Jerry, I'll agree with you.
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Postby Louis Swaim » Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:33 pm

Greetings,

I'm not sure why I'm having problems getting hanzi to stick this morning, but here is a link to an online dictionary entry for zhuoli:
http://zdic.net/cd/ci/11/ZdicE7Zdic9DZdic80304687.htm

This is the zhuoli appearing in Fu's Important Point. The whole phrase Fu used is zhuolidian, which is different from lidian.

I hope this helps.

Louis
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Postby Louis Swaim » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
In that last couple sentences, two situations are introduced: strong overcoming weak and quick hand overcoming the slow. 'These are both innate, natural abilities and not something arrived at from studying strength'.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Jerry,

I agree completely with your translation, but with one exception. I don't think xueli means "studying strength" here. Xueli means the process and attainment of advanced study. Youwei refers to the potential that lies in xueli.

Take care,
Louis
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Postby JerryKarin » Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:38 am

Right. First it says, strong overcomes weak, fast overcomes slow these are all innate and natural. ziran or natural, is the opposite of youwei (done by dint of activity). So the framework is: x is y; it is not z.
Agreed, maybe xueli should mean attainment from study here. So: these are both innate and natural, it's not the case that these depend on study or effort.
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Postby JerryKarin » Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:46 am

See the parallelism:
innate - studied,
by itself - by conscious effort.


[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 08-12-2008).]
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