Well I spent sometime contemplating what yielding is. I still don't think I have any clue. However from my experiences this is what I have come up with. Please crtique harshly. I want to know if my ideas are right.
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6261/taichiphysicsgk1.jpg
I have noticed with tai chi there are times when you think one thing is right then in simply fades away and the idea then becomes so ascure that you think to your self about how rediculous it is. I don't have much money to go to classes with my sifu, and have been out of class for 3 months. That is why I ask questions. I knwo my sifu would not and does not care about money but i feel bad.
Also I had a question about breaking stuff. Why is breaking stuff not considered a part of tai chi. My opinon on the matter, is that practicing the exertinon of Jing is important. There are many martial arts that use Fa jing, Wing Chun, Ba Gua. I just want to know why training to exert your Chi to break a slab of concrete while staying relaxed is a bad way to train your mind?
So I guess the real question would be why is it bad to try and break stuff while stay relaxed as a form of traning your mind? Also my next stage of training that I want to do is learn to break a specific brick. Not as a parlor trick but just master the control of the direction and amount of energy I exert in a strike. This goes against the fundemental Idea behind tai chi to not have an intention of striking right? I have moved around so I have had dirrent masters to great injustice to my self, I have heard many diffrent things. I have heard that there is striking in tai chi, and I have heard that there is not. I have seem people who claim to have tai chi power but do not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs9fZyVt0xM
I dont know how to train my ability to stay relaxed. I have no partner to do push hands with becuase I have no money for classes. My problem with push hands is that I use to much physical force, and my sifu told me to use the jing from inside, so In order to train I had to invent a way to measure the amount of jing I used with out flexing. Its not the fact that I can break the brick that does not impress me, its the fact that im just trying to measure my jing while staying relaxed. If there is another way to do this given my circumstances I would sure like to know.
Empty and Soft Princible?
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Empty and Soft Princible?
by Taichikid » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:15 am
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by Audi » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:26 am
If I get a chance, I may post more on empty and full, but right now I wanted to address the brick breaking.
The Tai Chi classics say that power is rooted in the feet, generated by the legs, guided by the waist, and expressed in the hands and fingers.
When I look at the brick breaking sequence, I see a different type of technique in evidence. In reviewing an earlier video, I suggested trying to show "fajin" by issuing without moving your hand back to prepare. I suggested that because in this situation, it is impossible to rely only on Jin in the hands and arms, you have to find it in the legs. Even so, that is not the best way to train Fajin.
I would also say that the delight of a piano sonata is in the piano and the mind of the piano player. It is not in his fingers. The delight of Taijiquan is in the body of the opponent and the mind of the practitioner.
To play piano well, you need gongfu in the fingers (i.e., good finger technique and good finger strength), but this is not the goal. To do Taijiquan well, you need gongfu in your body, but this is not the ultimate goal if you are going beyond Tai Chi for health.
If you concentrate on your relationship with bricks, you may miss the most interesting and wonderful aspects of Taijiquan, which do not concern things that can be done with inanimate objects.
Take care,
Audi
[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 01-13-2009).]
The Tai Chi classics say that power is rooted in the feet, generated by the legs, guided by the waist, and expressed in the hands and fingers.
When I look at the brick breaking sequence, I see a different type of technique in evidence. In reviewing an earlier video, I suggested trying to show "fajin" by issuing without moving your hand back to prepare. I suggested that because in this situation, it is impossible to rely only on Jin in the hands and arms, you have to find it in the legs. Even so, that is not the best way to train Fajin.
I would also say that the delight of a piano sonata is in the piano and the mind of the piano player. It is not in his fingers. The delight of Taijiquan is in the body of the opponent and the mind of the practitioner.
To play piano well, you need gongfu in the fingers (i.e., good finger technique and good finger strength), but this is not the goal. To do Taijiquan well, you need gongfu in your body, but this is not the ultimate goal if you are going beyond Tai Chi for health.
If you concentrate on your relationship with bricks, you may miss the most interesting and wonderful aspects of Taijiquan, which do not concern things that can be done with inanimate objects.
Take care,
Audi
[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 01-13-2009).]
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by JerryKarin » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:42 am
In traditional Yang style, fajing is practiced with a long staff, and to a lesser extent with sabre and sword. You can also practice fajing with single moves, but it is best to see an expert do it before you try.
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by Jamie » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:18 am
Fumin,
Here here! Well put. Neutralize and fa jin are one.
Learn how to neutralize Taichikid. Fa jin will naturally come out later. Don't forget that "relax" is the key ingredient to Taiji progress so lay off the bricks for a while and practice with people.
Best to all
[This message has been edited by Jamie (edited 01-14-2009).]
Here here! Well put. Neutralize and fa jin are one.
Learn how to neutralize Taichikid. Fa jin will naturally come out later. Don't forget that "relax" is the key ingredient to Taiji progress so lay off the bricks for a while and practice with people.
Best to all
[This message has been edited by Jamie (edited 01-14-2009).]
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- Location: Hamilton, ON, Canada
by Audi » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:37 am
Hi Taichikid,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Well I spent sometime contemplating what yielding is. I still don't think I have any clue. However from my experiences this is what I have come up with. Please crtique harshly. I want to know if my ideas are right.
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6261/taichiphysicsgk1.jpg</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am not sure I understand your theories correctly. From what I think understand, I would agree with some parts and disagree with other parts. Even more importantly, I think this line of reasoning might end up limiting your understanding.
First, in my view, "yielding" and "empty/full" are different concepts that should be kept separate. To understand "yielding," I think you have to study "using soft to overcome hard" and "using soft and hard together" as well as "sticking," "adhering," "linking," and "following." When I think of these things, I think of them in terms of "strategy," "tactics," and "technique." A great deal could be said about each of these.
As for "empty/full," I think one has to have a good grasp of what exactly the relationship is between Yin and Yang and what exactly the philosophical term "Taiji" means. "Empty/full" or "substantial/insubstantial" are concepts that can apply to everything, not just Taijiquan, and not just to the trajectory of a push and a neutralization.
I believe Yang Chengfu wrote that "Distinguishing full and empty" (fen xu shi) is the number one rule in Taijiquan. This did not mean that much to me until I began to study Push Hands more systematically. What I think I now understand is much easier to show with applications than to discuss in words.
To me "distinguish full and empty" means that
(1) I must understand full and empty in myself,
(2) I must use full and empty in myself,
(3) I must perceive full and empty in my opponent,
(4) I must use full and empty in my opponent, and
(5) I must hide my own full and empty from my opponent.
Full and empty applies not only to the whole, but to each of the parts.
If you know the full and empty in your opponent, you may be able to attack his Jin using any of four different tactics: making them locally too full, too empty, not full enough, or not empty enough. You may also be able to make your opponent unable to separate full and empty and thus unable to make his Jin flow toward you. He will have strength, but feel unable to use it.
As you understand more, you can apply these concepts to the opponent's mind intent, Qi, and spirit, since all of these are connected with Jin.
If you have no one to do Push Hands with, you have two choices: prepare a strategy to do find someone to push with or find a way to incorporate some of these concepts into the form. In my view, the former is far, far better than the first, and there are probably more possibilities than you might think. If you want some ideas, let me know.
As for putting Push Hands concepts into the form, it works best if you have some Push Hands experience, but is still possible to a limited degree without such experience.
In doing the form, I think that empty/full is a very important concept in terms of weight and weight shifts, but is also important in terms of the transfer of energy from the legs to the torso and arms. It is easy to do the form with more or less correct weight shifts, but still move in such a way as not to really use the power the legs generate. This is often less a matter of skill than of understanding and intent/purpose.
An example might be the middle of Push in the form. As the weight begins to move forward, the energy needs to flow from the legs to the torso and only then out through the hands. Another example might be Repulse Monkey. In that posture, the pull must come first from the legs, and only then from the arms.
I cannot see how anyone could deny that Taijiquan has striking. How could such a person explain all the punches and kicks in the traditional form?
In my experience, I have come across three different concepts that people use to mean "relax." The only time I was able to make rapid progress was when I finally understood the difference and chose one that worked for me. The concept I ended up with is
in some ways almost the opposite of what I originally understood and quite different than anything I had experienced before in other sports or martial arts.
I agree with the need to use "jing from inside"; however, if you practice the way the Association teaches, I would discourage worrying about using "physical force" in training the form or proceeding to "measure the amount of jing [you] use[] without flexing." Focusing on these things will probably not help you learn to "relax" in the way the Association teaches. If you are interested in this approach, let me know and I can post more.
Overall, it seems from your video clips that you have established an excellent foundation, but are at the point where it will be hard to make progress without a very clear idea about certain principles.
[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 01-29-2009).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Well I spent sometime contemplating what yielding is. I still don't think I have any clue. However from my experiences this is what I have come up with. Please crtique harshly. I want to know if my ideas are right.
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6261/taichiphysicsgk1.jpg</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am not sure I understand your theories correctly. From what I think understand, I would agree with some parts and disagree with other parts. Even more importantly, I think this line of reasoning might end up limiting your understanding.
First, in my view, "yielding" and "empty/full" are different concepts that should be kept separate. To understand "yielding," I think you have to study "using soft to overcome hard" and "using soft and hard together" as well as "sticking," "adhering," "linking," and "following." When I think of these things, I think of them in terms of "strategy," "tactics," and "technique." A great deal could be said about each of these.
As for "empty/full," I think one has to have a good grasp of what exactly the relationship is between Yin and Yang and what exactly the philosophical term "Taiji" means. "Empty/full" or "substantial/insubstantial" are concepts that can apply to everything, not just Taijiquan, and not just to the trajectory of a push and a neutralization.
I believe Yang Chengfu wrote that "Distinguishing full and empty" (fen xu shi) is the number one rule in Taijiquan. This did not mean that much to me until I began to study Push Hands more systematically. What I think I now understand is much easier to show with applications than to discuss in words.
To me "distinguish full and empty" means that
(1) I must understand full and empty in myself,
(2) I must use full and empty in myself,
(3) I must perceive full and empty in my opponent,
(4) I must use full and empty in my opponent, and
(5) I must hide my own full and empty from my opponent.
Full and empty applies not only to the whole, but to each of the parts.
If you know the full and empty in your opponent, you may be able to attack his Jin using any of four different tactics: making them locally too full, too empty, not full enough, or not empty enough. You may also be able to make your opponent unable to separate full and empty and thus unable to make his Jin flow toward you. He will have strength, but feel unable to use it.
As you understand more, you can apply these concepts to the opponent's mind intent, Qi, and spirit, since all of these are connected with Jin.
If you have no one to do Push Hands with, you have two choices: prepare a strategy to do find someone to push with or find a way to incorporate some of these concepts into the form. In my view, the former is far, far better than the first, and there are probably more possibilities than you might think. If you want some ideas, let me know.
As for putting Push Hands concepts into the form, it works best if you have some Push Hands experience, but is still possible to a limited degree without such experience.
In doing the form, I think that empty/full is a very important concept in terms of weight and weight shifts, but is also important in terms of the transfer of energy from the legs to the torso and arms. It is easy to do the form with more or less correct weight shifts, but still move in such a way as not to really use the power the legs generate. This is often less a matter of skill than of understanding and intent/purpose.
An example might be the middle of Push in the form. As the weight begins to move forward, the energy needs to flow from the legs to the torso and only then out through the hands. Another example might be Repulse Monkey. In that posture, the pull must come first from the legs, and only then from the arms.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I have heard that there is striking in tai chi, and I have heard that there is not.</font>
I cannot see how anyone could deny that Taijiquan has striking. How could such a person explain all the punches and kicks in the traditional form?
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I have moved around so I have had dirrent masters to great injustice to my self, I have heard many diffrent things.</font>
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I dont know how to train my ability to stay relaxed. I have no partner to do push hands with becuase I have no money for classes. My problem with push hands is that I use to much physical force, and my sifu told me to use the jing from inside, so In order to train I had to invent a way to measure the amount of jing I used with out flexing.</font>
In my experience, I have come across three different concepts that people use to mean "relax." The only time I was able to make rapid progress was when I finally understood the difference and chose one that worked for me. The concept I ended up with is
in some ways almost the opposite of what I originally understood and quite different than anything I had experienced before in other sports or martial arts.
I agree with the need to use "jing from inside"; however, if you practice the way the Association teaches, I would discourage worrying about using "physical force" in training the form or proceeding to "measure the amount of jing [you] use[] without flexing." Focusing on these things will probably not help you learn to "relax" in the way the Association teaches. If you are interested in this approach, let me know and I can post more.
Overall, it seems from your video clips that you have established an excellent foundation, but are at the point where it will be hard to make progress without a very clear idea about certain principles.
[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 01-29-2009).]
- Audi
- Posts: 1052
- Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: New Jersey, USA
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