hernia

Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:43 pm

Merely one example of many.
My point being that everyone gets something different out of their Tai Chi Chuan. What is a "rip off" to one is going to be pure gold pushed into their pockets for another.
Not everyone has to become a superlative martial artist to be considered to be practicing "real" Tai Chi Chuan.
Not everyone has to cure every ailment known to man to be considered to be practicing "real" Tai Chi Chuan.
Some folks just aren't that in the art for either of those reasons.
Tai Chi Chuan has no definition. It is what each person makes of it. It doesn't have to be all that and a bag of chips to be "real" Tai Chi Chuan to everyone who studies it.
People will get out of it whatever they put into it, that's the reality. Not everyone is willing to dedicate their very existence to the practice and perfection of Tai Chi Chuan. Some folks just want to lower their blood pressure, or learn to stand steadier, or move with more surety, or... whatever. There are as many reasons for people to take up the art as their are people taking it up.
As long as they get what they want out of Tai Chi Chuan, no one else can say they're not getting the true essence of the art.
And telling people that if their entire structure hasn't changed in three years, they're not getting "the real deal" from their teacher and so they're getting "ripped off"...
That would be as ridiculous as telling someone that if they don't start painting like Rembrant, Monet or Picasso when they take classes at an art school in just three years the art school is ripping them off.
What if they only wanted to learn to paint flowers and they put in the time and practice to learn to do just that one thing well? They got what they paid for, the amount of practice they were willing to put in took them there and they got out of it all they wanted of it.
How is that a rip off?
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Postby JerryKarin » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:20 pm

Tai Ji only resembles a panacea for all ailments. Sometimes great practitioners fall ill and die. There was a fellow named Zhang, if I remember right, youngish guy who wrote some articles for Tai Chi Magazine. Ended up dying of leukemia or something. But this guy had it all going, the real deal. Xie Bingcan praised this guy to the skies, which is quite a rare honor. Stuff happens.
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Postby JerryKarin » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:24 pm

Xie, I might add, who is a great practitioner and knows all sorts of Chinese medicine and tuina --- had an operation to repair a hernia.
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Postby WU » Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:37 pm

Greeting!

It all comes down to individual choices now. Regarding studying Tai Chi, you have the following types of Tai Chi to pick and it doesn't matter what style it would be:

(1) Taiji exercise:

People would use it for workout and social event.

(2) Taiji sport:

Winning competitions is the main focus including forms and push hands.

(3) Mixed Taijiquan:

Practitioners would mix Taijiquan with some other sports or martial arts like wrestling, Aikido and external Kung Fu..., etc

(4) Relaxing Taijiquan:

They would use it for solely relaxation only without martial art skills.

(5) Internal Tai Chi:

It heals your body completely first then strengthen internal organs/bone structure so that the practitioners would become natural healers and internal martial artists.

(6) Misc. Taijiquan

Those are not belong to listed above.

Similarly, you can go for any medical treatments you think it's the best for you. It's about personal taste. That's why it makes this world so fascinating!

[This message has been edited by WU (edited 10-17-2007).]
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Postby sysop » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
Xie, I might add, who is a great practitioner and knows all sorts of Chinese medicine and tuina --- had an operation to repair a hernia.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had an operation for bilateral inguinal hernia. You need to see a medical doctor for a hernia. After the surgery, short and long form Tai Chi helped strengthen my overall health and the repaired muscles, but there are some things that Tai Chi and herbal medicine just cannot heal on their own. If you broke a bone Tai Chi would be great after it healed to re-strengthen the bone, but I would not want to practice Tai Chi with a broken bone expecting it to heal. Image I believe in the healing effects of Tai Chi, prayer, and herbals, but I blend it with the knowledge of modern medicine and science.

[This message has been edited by sysop (edited 12-11-2007).]

[This message has been edited by sysop (edited 12-11-2007).]
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Postby JerryKarin » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:02 am

Exactly. If someone broke a bone, the thing to do is get it x-rayed, consult knowledgeable doctors and get the best care possible. Taiji is excellent and great for overall health, but one mustn't substitute a religion of taiji as health care for proper medical care when a traumatic injury is experienced. I have met some taiji masters and they all utilize the skills of western and Chinese medicine when appropriate.
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Postby Simon Batten » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:52 am

I'm aware that I might not be believed but I can truthfully mention an incident that occurred to me about 7 years ago. I was late for my train, the normal gate onto the platform was locked, I climbed on top of it (it was about six feet in height), caught my right trouser leg on one of the uprights (of which I was unaware) and of course then when I jumped off the other side I landed all on one foot and twisted it under me. I virtually couldn't get up and was in fact unable to walk, only hop. I called an ambulance and was taken to hospital where I was told that in addition to really serious soft tissue damage I had sustained an avulsion fracture to my right ankle. It couldn't be plastered and I was discharged on crutches and told to rest it for at least a fortnight and that it would take six weeks to heal. In fact (and you can choose to disbelieve this if you want), I used embryonic breathing and led my Chi via meridians to the affected area envisaging it as a ball of light. This brought immediate relief. I did this several times a day. After three days I was able to walk using only one crutch and after six days I was walking again unaided. After ten days I was able to do the entire Yang Cheng Fu form with small steps and after two weeks I was able to do the entire Yang Cheng Fu form with large steps including turn and kick with right heel, turning through 180 degrees on the ankle I'd fractured two weeks previously. So who says Tai Chi can't help to heal broken bones? It certainly helped a great deal in the case of my avulsion fracture. Regards, Simon.
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Postby Simon Batten » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:56 am

Wu: I have to say, with due respect to other contributors, that personally I entirely agree with everything you have said here and can vouch for this from my own personal experience. If you read my story about healing my fracture in my previous message, I hope you will believe me where many possible wouldn't. Your quotation from the Tao Te Ching has also been a very stabilising influence in my life and the work in general has been a key influence in my own Tai Chi practice as well as in the conduct of my life in general (and the sames goes of course for the Book of Chuang Tzu). Kind regards, Simon.
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Postby JerryKarin » Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:59 pm

Hmmmnn... Actions speak louder than words, Simon. When you had your accident, you didn't start doing taiji on the platform. You went to a hospital, had it x-rayed and consulted with doctors. I have no doubt you are sincere in what you are saying, but keep in mind that some people may actually read what you say and refuse to see a doctor, which would be a mistake, IMO.
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Postby Simon Batten » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:13 pm

Jerry: of course I didn't start doing T'ai Chi there and then on the platform - I couldn't walk for Heavens' sake!!! And of course I'm not advocating self-therapy for injuries and illnesses using internal TCM alone. Agreed, it's essential to see a doctor. What I'm saying though, is that if you have any experience of embryonic breathing and Chinese meditation, it's very well worth while giving these a try IN ADDITION to seeking conventional medical assistance. Sorry if I didn't make this point clearly enough. And certainly, if I'd had a clean break of a bone I'd have to have had a hole in my head not to want to get it set, and yes, mine was only an avulsion fracture ... On the other hand, there can be no other explanation for how rapidly it healed than the one I've given. At the time there was a young woman in our Tai Chi class who was a former ballet dancer. I actually struggled along to the class several days after the accident on one crutch and just sat and watched the Master - that's how keen I was not to miss a class then, when I was living in London and was able to attend regularly. I showed her my foot which was grossly black, blue and swollen and she sort of turned a bit green when she saw it. When I was back a week later and doing the full form with admittedly small steps, she simply coulcn't believe it - and she was a former ballet dancer, well used to seeing this sort of injury and well aware of how long it usually takes to recover from them. Another thing: I think that the reason that some people don't make a great deal of progress on the internal side of Tai Chi is that they simply don't believe in the 'system' as it can't be explained by conventional medicine and science. In my view, it is absolutely essential that one believes implicitly in the Chinese theory - otherwise the mind won't be fully engaged in the processes concerned and of course, where there is no Yi there is no Chi. At the very least, one has to 'willingly suspend disbelief', and then beneficial results will surely follow. 'I kid you no kid'. Further proof if any is needed: after practising these methods for some years, I am now able to do the Tai Chi barehand and sword forms outside on the tennis courts in Winter on a cold day in the park in bare feet and just wearing shorts and a vest. I quickly warm up and I don't know of any other form of exercise where even the exposed hands get warm on a cold day. Even runners and footballers often wear gloves in cold weather.... Kind regards, Simon.
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Postby JerryKarin » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:10 pm

I think we are basically on the same page. I don't think much in the way of belief is actually required to be successful with taijiquan. For example it is not necessary to believe in Qi and other Chinese medical concepts. All you really need to do is learn the requirements for each move and (in the case of traditional Yang style) the 10 essentials, and put in lots of practice, IMO. For yi to be present all you need is the general idea of the application for each move. Push hands will help make that clearer. The rest will follow without any superstructure of belief, IMO.
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Postby JerryKarin » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:31 pm

I guess I should add that there are some technical concepts like Peng, Lu, Ji, An, etc, but these are no more beliefs than say 'backhand' in tennis. They describe techniques.
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Postby Simon Batten » Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:12 am

Jerry: I see what you're saying but I think I was referring more in connection with belief or 'willing suspension of disbelief' to the more internal aspects - particularly embryonic abdominal breathing co-ordinated with the movement of yin and yang in the form. I think it's necessary to do some seated meditation first to get the hang of it and at that stage the 'belief' is important for the internal mental imageing. Once one comes to appyling this breathing to the form, it should then be fairly automatic and although necessarily the mind will have to be on the breathing for the first few weeks of its application to the form, it soon becomes automatic and then one can get back to focussing on the applications imageing, without which the 'essential hardness' won't develop, as the mind shouldn't be on the breathing during the form, according to the Tai Chi classics. Kind regards, Simon
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Postby JerryKarin » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:24 pm

Simon, yes I understand. I'm not very into that sort of 'internal' myself, though I certainly have no kick with it, or other types of qi-gong. Like silk-reeling, those aspects of taiji are in traditional Yang style, but the Yangs don't seem to put much emphasis on that or approach it from that direction. IMHO, they are mostly into peng jing. Hope I'm saying that right. Maybe I should say that it is a much heavier emphasis for them. I am not an indoor student but it appears to me that they go for naturalism or uncontrolled spontaneity in things like breathing, preferring to allow the unconscious mind and the body itself to accomplish the deed. This approach does seem to me to be grounded in the Daoism of works like the guanzi (Kuan Tzu), locutions like 无代马走'don't try to do the running in place of the horse'.


[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 02-03-2008).]
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Postby Simon Batten » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:17 pm

Jerry: thanks for this information. I imagine that there might have been a change of emphasis when Yang Cheng Fu adapted Ban Hou's form. Dr Yang Jwing-Ming of course teaches the Ban Hou form form and I believe he might be one of the few in the world still to do so. If his books are anything to go by, the aspects I've mentioned would certainly have formed an integral part of T'ai Chi practise in Ban Hou's time - I'm thinking in particular of Dr Yang Jwing Ming's book 'T'ai Theory and Martial Power'. Possibly (and this is only a conjecture of course), Yang Cheng Fu in seeking to present T'ai Chi to a wider public left these aspects out of the basic 'curriculum' so as not to confuse potential students with 'too much infomation'. However I'm sure he would have transmitted these aspects to those who were dedicated and I feel that they are just as relevant to the Yang Cheng Fu form as for instance to the Ban Hou form, but that's not to deny that there are many different emphases one can place on Tai Chi practice and it varies a lot between the great Masters, with some placing more emphasis on one area than another. Kind regards, Simon.
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