<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wushuer:
<B>Yes, I deliberately posted that as two different meanings. You seem to have understood that and followed it to the logical conclusion. I can't say much more on that.
No, I can't see how you could point out that I have decided to kill somone based on my perception of their intent, mistaken or not, as I have not. I have never attempted to kill anyone, they tried to kill me, at which point I used their actions againt them and if that results in their death then I can not be responsible for their decision.
Anyone who attempts to kill me or my loved ones has given up their right to live and there will be no regrets on my part if that is the outcome of their decision. It's really quite that simple. You have obviously not read my posting very carefully to have missed the point so entirely.
I do not go out and try to find people to kill for the fun of it. I only use lethal force against an opponent who has deliberately attacked me, who is unknown to me and is trying to kill me beyond a shadow of a doubt. Under those circumstances, what choice do I have?
In case you're wondering, it is crystal-clear obvious to you when you are facing an attacker who is out to kill you. You won't be able to miss it when it happens, trust me. There is no other vibe like it in the world.
You question my ethics in this type of situation, but I have lived through "kill or be killed" situations more than once in my time on this earth. Did you catch that reference? I have LIVED through them. In other words, I have succesfully defended my life on more than one occasion against an attacker whose intent it was to kill me and I'm still here to talk about it.
As you have stated previously that you have not, how can you question the moral decisions at that time by those of us who have?
Until you have been in the situation where you must decide to either take your opponents life or let him take yours...
Don't even consider attempting to dictate or question the ethics of those of us who have, because you don't have the experience to try.
To settle any troubles to you mind on the subject, despite my best efforts none of those opponents died. No I have not killed another human being in self defense.
It must be that my martial arts just weren't up to snuff, because I can tell you honestly that they did not live due to any mercy on my part. Fortunately for them, somehow they lived through the stupidity of attacking me with lethal force and lethal intent.
Do I regret that they lived? No. How could I? I never intended to kill them in the first place, I was simply reacting to their attempts to end my life and therefore meant them no harm then or now, I simply did what I had to do. If the outcome would have been different, had they died, I would still not regret it. The choice to engage in a potentially lethal encounter with me was their decision, not mine.
Kill or be killed is a reality in this world, one I have faced, and I know deep in my heart that my decision at those times was appropriate and would be repeated in future encounters of the same type whenever necessary.
After you have experienced this particular event in your own life, then I will want to hear from you on the morality of killing an opponent who is trying his best to kill you. Until then, you simply aren't qualified to discuss it with any authority.
Sorry, that may sound harsh, but it is true none the less.
As for the fear of retaliation staying my hand if the situation arises...
I have not feared it in the past, will not fear it in future. During an attack on me in which I am fighting for my life the LAST thing I'm going to be thinking as I take the life of my opponent in self defense is "Gee, I wonder if this guys brother is going to try and kill me now?".
Do you see where I'm coming from here?
In a combat situation if I stopped and took that much time to think, it would become a moot point. By the time I got to "Gee, I won....", I'd be dead and it wouldn't matter anymore. I will have failed to defend myself due to fear of a possible future action against me. That is not an option that I am willing to take.
If someone attacks me, tries to take my life and dies because of it and then their brothers and cousins and friends try to kill me...
Then I will have another battle for my life with another attacker at that time and I will kill him if I have to as well. More surely this time because I'll KNOW up front what his intentions are. Again, no regrets on my part if that's his decison, he made the decision, attempted to follow through on it and is now engaged in a life or death battle with me. If possible, it'll be his life that will end and I will not regret it for one instant.
I can only take life one battle at a time and try to live through THIS one. Future battles are not a consideration at that time. Fear will not be either.
I understand the idea of "retaliation" by a group due to a perceived wrong, I simply refuse to allow it to enter into my mindset when forced into fighting for my life.
In other words, I'll worry about his buddies when I'm faced with them.
All that said. I know from personal experience that you cannot show restraint or fear of future retaliation in the face of imminent death during combat. To do so is to render the entire idea of self preservation moot.
I train martial arts to protect myself, my life, my property, my loved ones. If that means I have to kill a temporarily (or permanently, who knows?) insane attacker who is trying to kill me to get them to stop, then so be it. This is a decision they made by attacking me with the intent to kill me, I did not force them to attack me, they chose to do it on their own. No guilt can or will be ascribed to me.
I do not practice quilt making, I practice a martial art. The death of an attacker is a consequence I am prepared to deal with if that person attacks me with lethal intent. My attacker makes his choice, I have to then make mine.
The ethics are clear.
Do not assume from this that I am a red handed reaver intent upon death and destruction. I am so far from that persona as to be as close to diametrically opposed as possible. I do not relish or crave the idea of taking anyone's life. I do not seek out conflict and have been called "coward" too many times to relate as I have turned tail and walked away from brewing fights. In non-lethal encounters I have never harmed an opponent more than they attempted to harm me, and most often I have not harmed them at all, rather simply taught them a short, sharp lesson in pain and let them decide on their own that I'm not worth the trouble. In the several altercations in which I was certain I was fighting for my life and tried to finish it quickly and logically, fortunately my martial arts weren't quite up to the task. Do not take that to mean that I did no harm, because the resultant damage was severe, but fortunately for my opponents none of them died. Or unfortunately when you consider that the last two should still be in jail for assault with the intent to commit great bodily harm not less than murder for quite a long time to come.
If my take on self-preservation makes you squeamish, I'm sorry for that but I will not apologize for it or change it. It has served me well so far and I can see no real reason to change.
You'll need to do a lot more convincing, with a much clearer ethical reasoning, than you have so far to get me to even consider making a change in my approach to whether I will defend myself and those I love with a lethal repsonse if it is forced upon me.
[This message has been edited by Wushuer (edited 09-09-2003).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Since this board has an editing feature, and I've snipped portions from my response (see below), I'm quoting the whole thing here as it stands, for the purpose of clarity.