"deng jiao" / "deng tui"

"deng jiao" / "deng tui"

Postby LarryC » Sat Sep 13, 2003 8:25 pm

I have been trying to learn to pronounce the Chinese names for the moves in the YZD form. I have been using as a reference the CD recording of Master Yang calling the moves (purchased at a YZD seminar in 2001). In matching this recording with the listing of the postures on this web site, I have noticed a difference that puzzles me.

After the first instance of gao1 tan4 ma3 in the set, there follow the two "separate feet" kicks (numbered as 37 and 38 in the cut and pasted listing below). Master Yang pronounces them as written, but then for move 39 (and subsequent similar kicks) he says, "deng tui" instead of "deng jiao", as listed.

..............
36 gao1 tan4 ma3 High Pat Horse
37 you4 fen1 jiao3 Right Separate Foot
38 zuo3 fen1 jiao3 Left Separate Foot
39 zhuan3 shen1 zuo3 deng1 jiao3 Turn Body, Left Heel Kick
..............

I understand that the separation kicks have a toe intention, and that the subsequent kicks have a heel intention. Does Master Yang use "tui" instead of "jiao" to emphasize this difference? Is the "jiao" term more traditional, but in Master Yang's thinking perhaps less instructive?

In any case, my main concern is vocabulary and pronunciation. Are "jiao" and "tui" similar, if not cognates? What is the proper tone of "tui"?

In a similar vein, but on a different topic, I notice that when Master Yang pronounces "an4", during lan que wei, his pronunciation seems to include an initial but subtle "n" sound. It's almost as if he is saying "nan", but not quite.
Is this perhaps a regionalism? A subtle rule for pronouncing fourth tone words in isolation? Or perhaps I am simply hearing it wrong.

Thanks for any help.

LarryC


[This message has been edited by LarryC (edited 09-13-2003).]

[This message has been edited by LarryC (edited 09-15-2003).]
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Postby Gianluca Meassi » Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:16 pm

I'm not the right person to reply to this topic, cause it needs at least one proficient in chinese, but your question about tui makes me think about another figure in the traditional form. It is "shi2 zi4 tui3". For what i read on Fu Zhongwen "Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan" (english version translated by Louis Swain) in origin that posture was something like a "half bai lian". Is it still visible in some Yang or Wu forms.
So i suppose the tui like a horizontal leg sweep. Again to be clear, is a personal opinion, very humble.
I think that the deng jiao after the 2 feng jiao could be a single or double lift leg sweep. Again just MHO. Louis or Jerry and other in this forum can give you a good and precise answer.

Just for curiosity. My Master tell me that the deng1 jiao3 before or after (didn't remember very well sorry) the two Da Hu Shi was a "Ban Jiao" (well i write as I hear it), a typical kick present in other forms, a kick slapped on the hitch with the hand.
Anybody have heard that or have comments to add?

"A presto" (See you soon)
Gianluca

[This message has been edited by Gianluca Meassi (edited 09-18-2003).]
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Postby lei2002feng » Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:54 am

In chinese "jiao3" means foot and "tui3" means leg. In northern china there is a word "nan4", the same meaning with "an4", but here Master Yang pronounces "an4".
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Postby Audi » Sat Sep 20, 2003 7:18 pm

Hi Larry:

I noticed the same thing you are referring to and wondered about it. It is clear to me that the Yangs care a great deal about standards, but it is not clear to me that the Yangs have rigid standards about nomenclature. They seem to be most interested in the efficiency of teaching. Where efficiency is not an issue, they seem to allow some leeway in terminology and use or permit alternate posture names.

As the previous poster said, “jiao3” means “foot,” and “tui3” means “leg.” I believe that “deng jiao” and “deng tui” mean more or less the same thing. Many intransitive English verbs correspond to phrases in Chinese that include transitive verbs linked with dummy objects. They are called “dummy” objects, because they are bleached of their ordinary meaning and simply stand in for any suitable object. “Deng jiao” could be translated as “give a thrust kick with your foot,” and “deng tui” could be translated as “give a thrust kick with your leg.”

My understanding is that the word “deng1” refers to a thrusting/stamping motion that implies use of the bottom of the foot or the heel. “Heel kick” is a reasonable rendering of the noun usage, but is slightly more specific than the Chinese term, which simply implies the bottom of the foot.

“Ti1” is a more general word than “deng” and corresponds more or less to “kick.” For instance, what one does to a soccer ball is “ti.” As far as I recall, this word does not appear in any of the form names; however, Yang Jwing Ming does use it for many of the specific kicking techniques he describes in his books.

I am not sure what exactly “fen1 jiao” is supposed to connote, but it means something like: “divide/separate your feet/foot.” I have never heard this posture called anything but this and would be surprised if “fen1 tui3” would be an acceptable alternative. In “deng jiao/tui,” I would think that one can visualize the Jin as traveling through the leg or the foot, but in “Fen Jiao,” I would think the focal point is more specifically in the top and side of the foot.

As I understand it, the two types of kicks are different because of the difference in usage. The intention of the “fen jiao” series is to kick the side of the opponent’s knee, ribs, or upper body with the top of your foot. The intention of the “deng jiao/tui” postures is generally to kick straight ahead into the opponent’s stomach with the heel or sole of your foot.

I have also noticed the variant pronunciation of “an4,” which I hear as [ngan4]. (The “ng” has the same sound as in the English word “singing.”)

I believe that old Chinese had an initial “ng” in many words that is no longer pronounced in the official pronunciation of any regular Mandarin words, but that is preserved in some Chinese speech. I had not thought that this sound was preserved in any varieties of Mandarin, but I know that conservative Cantonese pronunciation uses this initial sound in many words that begin with vowels or “w” in Mandarin (e.g., the words for “I/me,” “short,” and “coast.” As I understand it, the initial “ng” is not used in any regular Mandarin words, and so I would advise you not to use it if you want to affect the kind of neutral accent expected of a foreigner.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby LarryC » Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:38 am

Thankyou to all who have replied to my question. Audi, thanks, as always, for an especially thorough and cogent explanation.

LarryC
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Postby Audi » Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:13 am

Hi Larry,

Since my previous post, I happened to be flipping through a copy of Y.K. Chen’s book on Taijiquan, where I believe he attempts to set forth the version of Yang Chengfu’s form that he learned, complete with descriptions of applications. I thought you might be interested in what I found.

In Chen’s description of the form, he calls some of the kicks “Deng Jiao” and others “Ti Jiao.” (He actually uses the Wade-Gile spellings of “Teng Chiao” and “T’i Chiao.”) He translates Deng Jiao as “kick with sole” and describes a kick to the opponent’s abdomen or “waist,” using the bottom of the foot. He translates “Ti Jiao” as “Foot kicks upward” (I think this really should be just “kick”) and describes a kick with the “tip of the foot” to the opponent’s wrist, elbow, or armpit.

By the way, I have seen videos of the form that show some kicks down with Fajing and others without. I have wondered whether the distinction corresponded to these two different kicks. I think I posted an inquiry on this subject sometime ago, but got no responses.

As I understand it, the form that has come down to us through the Yangs and through some others has been simplified/refined to eliminate certain postural distinctions, odd angles, and “irregularities” that were not thought important to emphasize in the form. I presume such simplification/refinement is one of the sources of variant terminology.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby Gianluca Meassi » Mon Oct 06, 2003 6:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Hi Larry,

Since my previous post, I happened to be flipping through a copy of Y.K. Chen’s book on Taijiquan,... "
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Audi, very interesting note.
Could you explain a bit more about that book?
In that book there is a reference to "Feng Jiao" or not? There are there application notes on "Shi Zi Tui"?

A presto
Gianluca
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Postby Audi » Tue Oct 07, 2003 1:14 am

Greetings Gianluca,

The book I was referring to is called Tai-Chi Ch’uan, Its Effects & Practical Applications, by Y.K. Chen, published by Newcastle Publishing Co. 1979. I bought at a bookstore chain in the U.S. called Borders. I believe the author is also known as Yearning K. Chen, Chen Yanling, and Chen Kung. The book purports to describe all the aspects of the traditional bare-hand forms and push hands exercise. It includes applications for all the form postures that more or less parallel ones I have read elsewhere.

The book does indeed cover both “Fen Jiao” (Separate Foot) and “Deng Jiao” (Kick with sole/heel). (I am not sure which you meant to spell by “Feng Jiao”). Are you interested in some particular aspect of this?

The notes that the book contains for [Zhuan Shen] Shi Zi Tui ([Turn the Body and] Cross Legs) are that it is the same as Turn the Body and Kick with Left Heel, except that the sole of the right foot is used. I assume from your question that your interest is in the old version of this posture. I vaguely recall that Doc Fai Wang seems to show some sort of crescent kick on one of his videos. I presume this dates from Yang Chengfu’s earlier teaching. Chen’s version is the same as what Yang Zhenduo teaches now. It is also what I understand to have been Yang Chengfu’s final version of this posture.

Does this answer your questions?

Buona fortuna,
Audi
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Postby Gianluca Meassi » Tue Oct 07, 2003 7:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Greetings Gianluca,

The book does indeed cover both “Fen Jiao” (Separate Foot) and “Deng Jiao” (Kick with sole/heel). (I am not sure which you meant to spell by “Feng Jiao”). Are you interested in some particular aspect of this?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I mispelled it. My fault.
Just to know if that "Ti Jiao" was a substitute for Fen Jiao or something different. I only know of "Deng Jiao" and "Fen Jiao" as a kick in YCF form. Is it right?
Any reference to foot/leg methods in Yang style like the one listed by Yang Zhenduo in Zhong Guo Yang Shi Taiji for the palm ?
Is Bai3 Lian2 a leg method and thereafter comparable to Deng/Fen Jiao or not?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>
cut
I assume from your question that your interest is in the old version of this posture. I vaguely recall that Doc Fai Wang seems to show some sort of crescent kick on one of his videos. I presume this dates from Yang Chengfu’s earlier teaching. Chen’s version is the same as what Yang Zhenduo teaches now. It is also what I understand to have been Yang Chengfu’s final version of this posture.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Audi. This is what I know about Shi Zi Tui, and how i practice it. But i'd like to know how it was the old version of this posture and what did it have of particular.
Fu Zhongwen talk about that old version in Louis' book. My interest is in the "usage" of the Shi Zi Tui. I mean usage not only to the martial application but on what the posture was based upon. What kind of "jins" use, where what we must put Yi, something to avoid practicing it, ecc.
If it was just a "Zhuan Shen You Deng Jiao" I think that Yangs didn't put it a different name, did they?

Please understand that I do not want to start a thread about the old Yang form or the true Yang form. I practice with a student of Fu Zhongwen (that I think is form is very similar form to YCF that is forum is based upon) and this is my way to see Taiji. I try find information about these discarded posture because i think that forgetting them is something to avoid.

(again please excuse my poor english)

A presto
Gianluca


[This message has been edited by Gianluca Meassi (edited 10-07-2003).]
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Postby Audi » Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:06 am

Greetings Gianluca,

I am certainly not an authority on these questions, but let me do my best to answer according to my knowledge until some steps forward to rescue me from my ignorance.

Based on an educated guess, I believe that what we know call “Deng Jiao” in the form used to represent two different techniques in Yang Chengfu’s earlier form: i.e., “Deng Jiao” and “Ti Jiao.” I think that this distinction is no longer expressed in the form, but is not thereby lost to the Style as a whole.

I think that the nine palm methods are not really techniques, at least not in the sense that that term is used in Karate. I think that Yang Zhenduo listed them to help show that there was principle behind the various palm positions in the form, so that students could take care to observe the distinctions where appropriate, while seeing the commonality between postures, also where appropriate. Without this list, one can be tempted to practice palm positions that really do not exist or to use incorrect mixtures of ones that do exist.

I am unaware of any similar compilation of leg methods. Yang Jwingming lists a number of different “Jins” that he asserts apply to the legs and feet, but I have not seen these described elsewhere. He describes many details of his Taijiquan that do not seem to apply to what the Yangs teach.

I get the strong impression that the traditional Yang Style postures do not really correlate with core Taijiquan energy techniques, but rather are used for convenience to describe groups of external positions within which many different Taijiquan techniques can be used. As a result, I do not think Zhuan Shen Bai Lian (Turn the Body and Sweep the Lotus) is describing the same type of thing as a Li Zhang (Standing Palm). The former is a posture and the latter is a method. I would argue that neither are techniques or applications in themselves.

I believe that Shi Zi Tui (Cross Legs) is now performed with exactly the same internal techniques as the You Deng Jiao (Kick with Right Heel) that precedes Zuo Da Hu Shi (Strike the Tiger, Left). I do not believe the old technique is lost to the style, but simply is not taught in the context of the form. From what I recall, the version that Doc Fai Wong showed on his video involved a right outside crescent kick, with Fajing, into the outstretched left palm; however, it has been a long time since I have seen this sequence and my memory is probably faulty. I do know that all the main styles of Taijiquan tend to be conservative with posture Names and so retention of a particular name does not necessarily tell much about how the posture is currently supposed to be performed, nor what energy is important to it.

I have not been in a setting where I expected to be shown or taught a repertoire of traditional Taijiquan kicks, but that does not mean that such does not exist. For instance, if I recall correctly, on one of his videos, Fu Shengyuan shows Fajing through a sequence of low quick kicks that do not exist in any of the forms.

Within the barehand and saber forms, there are now six named postures that contain four to five different kicking techniques. In addition to these, there are also, of course, the knee strikes in Jin Ji Du Li (Golden Rooster Stands on One Leg). Again, I do not believe this is the full repertoire of leg techniques available to the style.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby Gianluca Meassi » Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:26 am

Yes Audi. I think the same. The Palm methods described by Yang Zhenduo are a way to record and to understand how the hands are expressed in the form. My poor knowledge of English language makes me writing simple sentences, and sometime it comes out something is not what i mean. I still think in italian. Image
I was asking about kicks or leg methods in Yang style. I mean not how Yangs codify but how many legs/feets methods you know in Yang style. Any reference (books, master, personal experience, ecc.) is good.
For example : did you know and practice "Ti Jiao"?

Yang Jwingming lists of jins seems to me a little bit too schematic and extensive. Like you I see them for the first and only time in Yang Jwingming books.

You Say :
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> The former is a posture and the latter is a method. </font>


Could you explain it a bit more? What you say is very interesting. You mean that Bai Lian is not a method? In my mind i catalogue "Bai Lian" like a leg method (probably here the word methods is not the right one), a "jin", a way to express energy.

Yes, we got knee attack in Jin Ji Du Li. But we got a toe strike too (ie: to genitals). YCF talk about "trample" attack to the feet too, and this is not visible in the form. I know of many things (like the upper hand in Jin Ji Du Li that we practice as a li zhang but in application could be with palm up, lifting or pushing up a arm in the elbow) in the form that are not visible or immediate, but knowing them is important to me. It's important for my Yi when i practice. Usually i do not think to them during practice but help me to understand more of taiji. For example I know that i have to put Yi to the hand of the upper arm in Jin JI Du Li cause it can be an attack to face, neck ecc. For what I know and how i practice Yi is very important. Not to visualize a opponent or a attack (this is a very simple and basic way of practicing taiji in my opinion) but to put concentrate my mind on a direction or a part of my body.

You talk about 4-5 different leg techniques. You mean applications? Could you list them?
Deng Jiao and Fen Jiao for me aren't just applications. Like you I put my mind in different points/part when i practice them, and so i care to know what I'm doing when practing. And not only in the leg/feet, for example two posture use in a different manner the arms (in Fen Jiao we must grab the opponent where in Deng Jiao is not required) and so I will put more Yi on equilibrium or more Yi on expanding/stretching on the arms.

Probably I am still at a beginning stage of taiji practice and so I need to visualize the postures. Mobilizing the Qi is a very difficult task and using Yi help me to internalise my practice.

A last question (hope you will excuse me Image
My Master tell me that the "You Deng Jiao" (Right Heel kick) before the two Da Hu Shi (strike the tiger) or after them was a kick slapped with the right hand (I don't know the technical name of that kick). It is a rising kick could be a Ti Jiao? Have you heard about that?

Thank Audi for the help.
A presto
Gianluca


[This message has been edited by Gianluca Meassi (edited 10-14-2003).]
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Postby Audi » Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:35 am

Greetings Gianluca:

I think we do indeed seem to have the same or similar opinion of these matters. Your English is very good and quite clear; however, I find that many native speakers use these terms in ways that seem the same on the surface, but which, in my opinion, refer to fundamentally different ways of viewing certain principles.

You ask about Ti Jiao. I do not know for certain, but at the moment, I do not think this is a technical term, but rather a generic term for any kind of kick. My guess is that, at the time Y.K. Yearning learned his form, the postures designated with Ti Jiao were thought of as the least distinctive or the hardest to describe and so were given a generic name. The more specific kicks may have received more specific names to indicate the more unusual use of energy.

The applications that Yearning describes for Ti Jiao seem to be latent in all the kicks now done as Deng Jiao, but I cannot say that I have seen any of them performed with precisely this type of energy. I should say; however, that I think I have seen, Yang Jun put a similar energy into his kicks when he was speaking generically about kicking techniques, rather than doing a particular form posture.

I do not think of Bai Lian as a “leg method,” because the posture contains quite a number of different energies that all work together to produce a certain effect. The “crescent kick” is arguably the heart of the posture, but the other aspects of the posture are also important to set it up for this particular effect. In my opinion, a crescent kick would also be possible in other situations. It would also be possible to replace the crescent kick with other techniques. At what point the posture would cease to be “Bai Lian” would be hard to say. In general, I do not think such distinctions go to the heart of what Yang Style is about. For instance, I think it would be quite misleading to think of Ru Feng Si Bi (Apparent Closure) and An (the Push Posture) as merely different versions of a push application. Each of these postures contains numerous energies or the potential for numerous energies that make it unhelpful to think of either as simply a “push” or a “shove.”

In Jin Ji Du Li, I do not know where the primary Jin point is supposed to be, but I think I have several ideas that could work. For instance, the “Yi” could be on the fingertips of the rising hand as a strike under the chin. It could also be on the Tiger’s Mouth as a strike to the throat. I think it could also be on the palm as a thrust to the chin.

The sinking hand should also receive some attention. I think that the “Yi” could be focused either on the Tiger’s Mouth for “Cai” (“Pluck”) or on the palm for “An” (“Push”/”Press Down”).

In combination, I think you could see the posture as Lie, with a popping or cracking energy; as Ti (Lifting) to uproot the opponent through his or her elbow or chin; as “Long Energy”/”Lengthening”, if you follow the opponent all the way up from the floor; or even as “Inch Energy”/”Inching?” if you concentrate on the energy released as you straighten the standing leg.

As you come up out of Single Whip, you could also look for Lü in the left arm as you adjust it along with your left foot and shift your weight forward. In your right leg, you could look for a strike with your knee with your ankle bent and foot parallel to the ground (not shown in the form) or a simultaneous knee and “toe” kick to the groin with your ankle straight and perpendicular to the ground (as shown in the form). You could also see the knee as simply “connecting” and “sticking” to the opponent’s leg and preventing him or her from kicking or helping to disturb his or her root through contact with the leg.

One could, of course, mix and match all of the above in anyway appropriate for the circumstance at the time. Does this respond to your question?

The four or five “techniques” I was thinking about from the forms are: kicking with the top of the foot to the opponent’s side (Fen Jiao), kicking with the heel (Deng Jiao/Tui), using a swinging kick against the opponent (Bai Lian), using the top of the foot to kick with sharply rising energy (Er Qi Jiao in the Saber Form), and combining a hand grab with a heel or toe kick (Yuan Yang Jiao in the Saber Form). My speculation at this point is that this terminology is taken from general Chinese martial arts terminology and does not really signify specific energy techniques. In each of these cases, I think it is important to know what other energies are used in conjunction with these external forms. In the case of Er Qi Jiao and Yuan Yang Jiao, I think that Yang Style has even modified the external aspects of these kicks so that they do not correspond to the external aspects of how they are done outside of Yang Style.

In short, I think that you can do any kind of kick you want within Yang Style; however, I do not think you have free choice of the context within which you can use the kick. For instance, are you kicking with your legs full (shi) or empty (xu)? I would also say that certain types of kick really do not fit Yang Style strategies very well, for instance, those that imply a long-distance attack or a prolonged loss of physical contact with the opponent.

The kick that you describe as preceding You Da Hu Shi is still retained in the Saber Form and is what I referred to as Er Qi Jiao (“Two rising kicks”? or “Double rising kicks/legs”?) above. I think that this name really refers to a leaping double kick with almost straight legs that appears in other styles of Chinese martial arts (including Chen Style Taijiquan); however, in the current Yang Style Saber Form, it is performed as you described, with a rising slap kick to the right palm.

I hope this is helpful.

A presto,
Audi
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