Practice Time and Form Repetition

Postby psalchemist » Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:06 am

Greetings Michael,

Very interesting story. Image
Thanks for sharing your experience.

I have heard of this conscious inherent ability before...amazing what the mind can do to the body, as it truly is commander!

I have also read about monks having ability to alter their body temperatures by several degrees...Just something else to try sometime, hopefully not in surgery. Image

Take care,
Psalchemist.

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 03-20-2004).]
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Postby Yang Shen » Sat Mar 20, 2004 4:05 pm

I have a story as well. A co-worker was diagnosed as having high blood pressure and was given medication so I suggested for her to come to a couple classes, which she did. She was taught the Taoist breathing methods (breath controls the heart rate and so on) I suggested at the doctors appointment to do the breathing and guess what she did not have high blood pressure and does not need medication not good for pharmaceutical companies but great for real people.

Another story involves my son (my wife and kids practices internal arts with me) at gym class they were doing the “cardio work” out by running and then taking the heart rate numbers the coach told my son that he needed to run faster so he completed the track run quicker yet still had a low heart rate. Coach told him he was not doing it right he is supposes to elevate his heart rate. When I picked him up from school he told me all about it. I just said that controlling the breathing is far more advanced and good job.

“Be still as a mountain and move like an endless flowing river” hard to do when one is out of breath. The advantage in fighting skill is to have an opponent get tired by them using so much outward force and not controlling the breath they get tired quickly. So I suspect that training cardio helps lengthen endurance yet it is exhaustible and not an inexhaustible source of power as in internal methods.

The philosophy of such work outs as cardio is exactly what we think of as being strong big mussels, an outward show so elevated heart rate (besides what is natural) would also be included in being strong and fit it is just backwards to Tai Chi Philosophy. I was teaching a kid class and they got tired I’m 38 and was being easy they would never be able to keep up with my 74-year-old teacher. This would sound very strange to anyone outside of this art.
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Postby Wushuer » Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:27 pm

David J.,
If you wish to say that Sifu Ma Yueh-liang doesn't know what he's talking about...
That's OK with me.
I have NO problem with that.
I will never, in a million years, agree with you but you certainly have every right to say it.
I hope you don't mind, however, if I continue to take my TCC advice from the direct disciple of Wu Chien Chuan?

You may read Sifu Ma and his disciple Dr. Zee Wen's take on it, in their book "Wu Style Taichichuan Push-Hands (Tuishou)." published by the Shanghai Book Company, first printing 1984.
As it is copywrited material, I do not feel comfortable posting any of it here without permission. However, according to someone who has what might amount to a bit more experience than ANYONE on this board and his disciple who happens to be a medical doctor (Dr. Wen), you are wrong.
I did not get the idea 100% correct form my memory, as I stated, but I certainly came close enough.
Go ahead and read the book, come to your own conclusions.
I made mine about fifteen years ago, based on thier, and my Sifu's in the Wu family including Sifu Eddie Wu and Sifu Wu Tai Sin's, advice.
But to each his own. Good luck with longevity if you continue with those practices.

I believe I made mention either earlier on this thread or somewhere on another of my own stories with oximeters. I used to repair them for a living a few years back and I used my own body to test them rather than the machines the manufacturers supplied (I always certified them on the machine, however, no need to panic, though I was rarely, if ever, wrong). I can make the alarms go off and on all day too. It's really not that hard if you know what you're doing.
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Postby Michael » Sun Mar 21, 2004 4:45 pm

Wushuer,

Yes anyone can do that if they know what they are doing. You in part inspired my telling the story. I think the key point was that in lowering the heart rate, the number of respiration cycles, and the skyrocketing dissolved oxygen levels was the "interesting" part. Not unexpected for sure. The rest was just trying to inject a little humor as sometimes this place (which I love) could use a touch more.

Understand that I had utmost respect for Ma and I have not had the good fortune to read the text of his you refer to. But could the statement you offer have to do with the ONLY way to... not be an "all encompassing" statement but rather one more confined or pertaining to "internal" martial arts as opposed to other forms? Just wondering. I have seen evidence to the contrary that these things can be developed and enhanced by other training methods--like the Olympic runners. Personally, my meditation training with developing lung capacity, lower heart rate/blood pressure, etc started years before TCC. THe benefits I derived from it were already there. TCC certainly added to those benefits.

My best

Yang shen,

I would agree with you but the heart rate and number of breathing cycles that these olympic athletes had were tested at "rest". So I think it is not just about endurance. Believe me I am not selling "running" or "jogging" they are not for me in any way, shape, or form.

TCC certainly has great influences on the things Wushuer has been talking about that aerobic training does not. But both share some of the same benefits as well. I say this from personal experience and a very strong background in biology.

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 03-21-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 03-21-2004).]
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Postby DavidJ » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:52 am

Wusherer,

> Anywho, in short you have at least two differing nervous systems in your body, one that comes into play as a reaction to outside stimulus, such as fear, and uses adreneline to hop you up ready for fight or flight. <

You think that your parasypathetic and sympathetic nervous systems don't both come into play when you get adrenaline?

> This nervous system is trained by weight lifting, aerobic exercise, running, jogging,

It can also be trained by internal methods. You seem to think that internal methods don't use the voluntary nervous system.

> the more "traditional" programs of exercise train you to react with this nervous system for power and speed.

They can, but here it's a matter of *how* you train.

> Then there is another nervous system that regulates your heartbeat, breathing, the kinds of things that you do without conscious thought.

Which comes into play in running, weight training, etc, too.

> The second nervous system is trained by "internal" methods only, such as yoga, Chi Kung, Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing-I, Bagua. <

Your claim of "only" isn't true.

> The idea as I understand it is that training too much in the first method will actually shorten your life span because you are using up vital energy.

But you're mixing things up, is it deliberate?

Running and weightlifting will not "shorten your life span because you are using up vital energy," any more than internal methods will, unless of course you overdo it; but your associating the over-doing with the doing, or else why leave "training internal methods too much" out of your statement?

> It will make you "stronger" in the short term, but long term you are damaging your body and depleting too much vital energy too quickly. <

Is > It < in your statement above "training" or "training too much?" You don't make the distinction, and you add "long term."

If you train correctly you don't have those problems even if you train long term.

There are distinctions to be made here, and you seem to be trying to run roughshod over me. Please reconsider your position.

David J



[This message has been edited by DavidJ (edited 03-21-2004).]
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Postby Wushuer » Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:37 pm

Roughshod? That's a word I haven't seen in print in quite some time.
No, I'm not. Sorry you saw it that way.
I'm putting forth an opinion I happen to believe in forcefully, that's all.
Train any way you'd like.
My opinion is just that, my opinion. This one happens to be an opinion that I've seen put into reality over and over again in my time, so I have some practical experience with it. If I feel strongly about it, it's only because I don't like to see people work against what it is they're trying to attain.
Can you train in different ways and get the same types of results in terms of short term heart rate and nervous system reactions?
Of course.
However, I look to the long term. I only have one body to experiment on, and that's my own. It's got to last me a lifetime and I would really, really rather it last as long as possible and be in as good of shape as possible. So when a highly respected Tai Chi Chuan family, with members who continue to vigorously train and teach students well into their eigth and ninth decades (Si Kung could toss me around like a rag doll when I trained under him, and he was pushing 80, Auntie Wu {Wu Yan Hsia} could still do one legged stances, leaps and kicks without the slightest trouble and she was in her 80's) tells me that this is how it's done...
I'm going to listen to them.
This is the way I understand their theory to work. This is how the book written on the subject by one of their most respected Masters tells me it works.
Am I convinced this is how it works? You betcha.
So if I seem a bit set in my ways on the idea, sorry.
Read the book, form your own conclusions.
It is your own, personal body you're dealing with here. How you use it is up to you, of course.
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Postby DavidJ » Tue Mar 23, 2004 8:23 pm

Wusherer,

Runnning roughshod on someone can include sounding off when you are really not answering the issues. Your answer is not really an answer.

At no time have I disagreed with how good internal training can be.

You don't have to inaccurately knock running and weight training to elevate internal training.

David J

[This message has been edited by DavidJ (edited 03-23-2004).]
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Postby Wushuer » Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:04 pm

Ah, I see.
Have you had a TCC Master, teacher, Sifu, expert, whatever you wish to call them, tell you that weight lifting and aerobics training are good for you? Or good for your TCC training?
I have never heard, from anyone I've trained under, anyone whose books I've read, anyone I've ever seen quoted, or from personal experience gained over eighteen years in training and teaching TCC that these are "good" things in this discipline. Quite the contrary.
Tenseness creating, hard muscle building, joint jarring exercises have been contradicted in the training I've received and given to date. Of the traditional western types of exercise out there only walking and bicycle riding, and not marathon riding or extreme mountain biking just plain old every day run of the mill riding, has ever been recommended to me as acceptable forms of "exercise" to stay compatible with TCC principals.
I am speaking here only about training for TCC martial excellence, health and longevity, not of western "fitness" training. All of these types of exercises work against what it is that TCC works towards. Relaxing, stretching, calming, joint healing exercises are what have been recommended to me in every class I've ever taken, every book I've ever read, every quote I've ever heard, everything I've ever experienced in form training, push hands, sparring and free style wrestling, even weapons training goes better with relaxed muscles and comfortably stretched tendons and ligaments.
Sorry if you felt offended, or if I'd run "roughshod" over your opinion, but that is the way I was trained to view these types of things, as being very bad for you. These types of exercises harm the body, take away vital energy (depleting chi, tightening tendons and ligaments, restricting the flow of chi to the extreminities).
Do you have any indications that weight lifting and jarring types of aerobics training are beneficial to TCC? If so, please share them with us. I have never seen anything of the kind, but do have an open mind.
I have stated my case, now make yours. What is the benefit, to TCC following its philosophies and principals, from these kinds of things?
I will tell you now, I was a power weight lifter and heavy duty jogger in my mis-spent youth. I know a fair bit about these things from an insiders viewpoint. It took me quite a number of years to repair the damage I had done to my body from these things before I could reach any level of competency at TCC.
You're going to have a very hard sell with me. But by all means, pitch away.

[This message has been edited by Wushuer (edited 03-23-2004).]
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Postby rvc_ve » Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:58 pm

I will have to disagree with you wushuer...


I have been practicing taijiquan for over 10 years under several different well known masters. I have a long way to go of course but I feel I have a pretty good lever, specially on the martial aspects of it, and specially on the chin na aspects of it. My health is excelent, my relaxation and calmness of mind are, according to my teachers, on a good level of achievement. Im also a member of the US ARMY NATIONAL GUARD. I do Army P. Training, pushups, long runs, long marches with lots of equipment on, and even weights every once ina while.

I also practice xingyiquan which is also an internal art, and I have practiced Shaolin Northern Longfist for as long as I have practiced taijiquan.


I'll tell you for a fact... none of this training has damaged my taijiquan, and taijiquan has certainly improved my perfomance in this type of training. Realxationd and focused mind, which I get from taiji have helped me excel in military training and on external kung fu as well.

I have discussed this issue to death with many chinese internal master I've had a chance to meet, and they all agree that as long as you train ptoperly and according to the principles, other physycal training will not hurt you art.

Its absurd to think that physical fitness, strenght, flexibility, resistance, stamina, etc, are atributes contrary to taijiquan, asit would be absurd to state that ther are contrary to any other
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Postby rvc_ve » Tue Mar 23, 2004 11:59 pm

I will have to disagree with you wushuer...


I have been practicing taijiquan for over 10 years under several different well known masters. I have a long way to go of course but I feel I have a pretty good lever, specially on the martial aspects of it, and specially on the chin na aspects of it. My health is excelent, my relaxation and calmness of mind are, according to my teachers, on a good level of achievement. Im also a member of the US ARMY NATIONAL GUARD. I do Army P. Training, pushups, long runs, long marches with lots of equipment on, and even weights every once ina while.

I also practice xingyiquan which is also an internal art, and I have practiced Shaolin Northern Longfist for as long as I have practiced taijiquan.


I'll tell you for a fact... none of this training has damaged my taijiquan, and taijiquan has certainly improved my perfomance in this type of training. Realxationd and focused mind, which I get from taiji have helped me excel in military training and on external kung fu as well.

I have discussed this issue to death with many chinese internal master I've had a chance to meet, and they all agree that as long as you train ptoperly and according to the principles, other physycal training will not hurt you art.

Its absurd to think that physical fitness, strenght, flexibility, resistance, stamina, etc, are atributes contrary to taijiquan, asit would be absurd to state that ther are contrary to any other FIGHTING art.

The fact that you can continue to do taijiquan even after your body is no longer able to do other more intense excercises may have contributed to this myth...but is just that...a MYTH/.

Sun lu tang's xingyiquan master (i forget his name) would have young sun run after a horse every day to develop stenght and stamina (see sun lu tang's xingyiquan book).

Old chen style masters would train with heavy spears and poles to develop mucular strenght. The difference is that their muscle mass was relaxed and interconected by spiraling movements, but it was there!


Yang lu chang learned from the chens, and Im sure he had to have gone through this training. Pa kua practitioners circle walk holding heavy rounded shape balls on each arm.

every internal art including taiji has methods of conditioning other than for practice and sometimes include "weight". Taijiquan famous practice of taiji ball qiqong to develop listening jing and body conection is done with a wooden ball that is not to light!

Its all a matter of extremes. If you weight train or run too much you'll be to yang...if you barely move and meditate all day you'll be too ying! its a matter of keeping balance on the training regime. To think that taiji or any other art will isolate its practitioner from other types of methond to better himself is just...well not too natural, and certainlty not the taiji way!


[This message has been edited by rvc_ve (edited 03-23-2004).]
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Postby Wushuer » Wed Mar 24, 2004 4:49 pm

RVC_VE,
I'm glad it works for you. I hope it's not really doing the harm I fear it is.
That said, I still have to follow the advice I have been given and the experiences I have had.
You say "following the principals", which principals are you talking about?
The TCC principals I follow clearly contradict training in these ways. Which principal in TCC theory tells you to jar your body with repeated impacts of an aerobic nature, shorten and tear your tendons and ligaments and tighten your muscles with weight training, which restricts the flow of grand circulation chi, expends vital energy for little purpose, increases your heart rate and produces adrenelin consistently?
Remember, these are not MY theories or points of view. I get these directly from the Wu family, specifically Sifu Ma Yueh-liangs writings though the exact same sentiments have been expressed to me in writing and verbally by Si Kung Wu Yan Hsia (Auntie Wu), Si Kung Wu Tai Sin and Sifu Wu Kwong (Eddie) Wu.
I have given you all direction to one of the texts written by one of Si Kung Wu Chien Chuan's own disciples, his own son-in-law, which clearly contradicts this type of training for TCC excellence. There are others as well, this is just the most readily available.
My own experience has been that tightening my muscles, tendons and ligaments makes me stiff and unresponsive. When I began to train with the Wu family my Sifu clearly told me "You will have to chose. These two types of training contradict each other completely."
I remember those words well, since it was immediately after I stopped the power lifting and daily jarring jogging that my TCC began to show marked improvement. My double weighting quickly became a thing of the past once I relaxed my body enough to take advantage of the movements and principals of TCC.
I am not against exercise, quite the contrary, I exercise daily. I start with Chi Kung, breath work, I then stretch out every muscle in my body with a combination of Wu family warm ups and the warm ups I have learned from my YCF coach. Then I do three long forms (alternating Wu and Yang forms), one to warm up, one to clear my mind, one to set the postures. Sometimes, if I'm sufficiently loose and relaxed after those three sets and still have about five to six minutes left, I then do a Wu style fast form, this is about twice a week, just to keep up the "agility" aspect of that form (as in the five character formulas, one set for slow forms {calmness, lightness, slowness, exactness and perserverance} one for the fast forms {calmness, lightness, agility, exactness and perserverance}, but I'm sure you all knew that, sorry).
I follow these with a set of tiger crawls and then I do some falling and tumbling work. I finish up with a Yang 13 posture form, regardless of which days form work I'm on, as a cooling down period, heck sometimes I do it two or three times.
Later in the day I do twenty flights of stair walking using all the principals of TCC, including waist integration (it looks weird, but what the hey). I usually do about for or five 13 posture forms during my breaks through the day as well. My wife and I walk for a half hour four nights a week also. During clement weather I also ride my bike regularly of the evenings.
I do not raise my heart rate for these exercises, as this produces adrenelin, I do not jar my tendons, ligaments or joint, I do not tense my muscles any more than is necessary for movement, and yet I seem to accrue all the benefits associated with "western" style health exercise.
My resting heart rate is a consistent 46 to 48, sometimes as low as 42. My blood ox levels are consistently at 99% and I can maintain a rate of 92% even if I hold my breath for as long as I possibly can.
My doctors are consistently amazed at my low heart rate, my extremely low cholestorol count despite the fact that my entire family has extremely high cholestorol (only me, my mother and my oldest brother [who are both Wu family disciples] have low cholestorol levels) and yet a staple of my diet is bacon and eggs just about every day for breakfast, with biscuits and butter (man, do I love bacon and eggs).
I can stretch farther, move faster and am more agile than anyone my physical therapist has ever met. I recover from illness in about a quarter the time of others with the same symptoms. I recover from physical injuries more quickly than my physicians or PT's can account for in their experience, in fact my PT now recommends TCC training to all of his patients for recovery from illness or injury.
All these things became possible for me after I gave up the more traditional "western" fitness training regimines.
I'm glad this is working for you now, but I fear it's a short term fix only. For my part I believe you are injuring yourself repeatedly for a short term gain and will regret these things later.
Will you still be able to do these things when you are sixty? Seventy? Eighty? Ninety? More?
That is my goal, as I would think that it would be most anyones. Longevity as well as long term health during it.
Am I wrong here? Isn't that the idea? Didn't Chang San-feng in his "treatise" say TCC was for the heroes to maintain health and longevity as well as martial excellence?
Certainly these western style exercises give you a short term "fix". You become stronger, faster (in one sense), your resting heart rate is lowered, your blood pressure drops, you overall "health" by these standards does improve in the short term. However it's the sublimation of "internal" health, long term TCC principaled "health" that suffers from these things for all the above stated reasons.
And here's why I say "short term".
These "healthy" side effects that I've mentioned occur at the expense of temporarily raising your heart rate, tearing your ligaments, tendons and muscles and shocking your bones and joints. These things take time to heal, stiffen up your muscles, shorten your ligaments and tendons and cause your body to produce extreme amounts of adrenelin which shock your nervous system. In the long run you are destroying your body for the sake of a short term "fix". This temporary state of increased "health" does not stay with you.
What happens to your health when you have finally broken down your heart and it can no longer take the pounding? What happens to your health in thirty, forty years when you no longer have the muscle power to lift those weights?
What happens to those people who have spent their entire lives constantly abusing their bodies for the short term "health" benefits accrued through these types of exercises?
I'll tell you what is happening more and more across the world. They are learning TCC to try to offset some of the damage they have done to themselves for that short term health "fix".
No one needs to agree with me now. I'll check back in with you all who practice these things in about thirty to forty years and see how many of you are still lifting weights and running marathons, and how many of you are still practicing TCC to fix the effects of all those years of doing those things.
I made my decision nearly sixteen years ago when it became clear to me what I was doing to myself, I've never regretted it.
As for training with heavy spears and weapons, of course. I do these things, or more accurately I used to since I haven't in a few years. You nailed the idea on the head, they do it AFTER a long time in training proper movement theory. Once you know how to move a light spear or weapon properly and have integrated the theories of TCC movement principal into your everyday life you will not do the damage to your body as you perform these feats. You will be moving correctly so as to avoid the damage to your body.
I trained with spears, staffs and Manchu broadswords for years and years (I still train the broadsword and do my spear warm ups a couple of times a week, but nothing like I used to).
This is possible because you are now moving in a manner consistent with the principals, so you keep the same health benefit while increasing "strength" if that's what you wish to call it. I see it as more "skill" because you're moving these heavy objects in such a way that you're not really building up solid muscle mass, so you're not abusing your body while you do it.
Gotta run. Outta time for now.
I cannot convince anyone, I know this. All I can do is put this out there. Think about it, do some research.
One thing, I've never met a muscle bound TCC player I could not offset during push hands or defeat during free style sparring.
I have a brother who is six feet seven inches tall and weighs in at over 300 pounds. He will not cross hands with me or our eldest brother anymore. He got tired of being bounced around by both of his "little" brothers after we learned TCC. He's the "strongest" guy I know, I make him look like a rag doll when I play with his "strength".
I no longer worry about being "stronger", I'd rather be "smarter". That's what TCC is, a way to overcome strength with intelligence and skill.

[This message has been edited by Wushuer (edited 03-24-2004).]
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Postby JerryKarin » Wed Mar 24, 2004 4:57 pm

This is becoming too divisive. Let's agree to avoid this argument and let everyone follow the training path they like. Please don't take it any further on the board.
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Postby Wushuer » Wed Mar 24, 2004 5:34 pm

Jerry,
As always I will bow to your request, with the caveat that I, at no time, have felt there was animosity in the "division". I have felt only respectful disagreement and have tried to return the same, and no one seems to be getting heated. A good debate, yes, but an argument...? I haven't felt one here.
I have said my piece though, that's all I ever wished to do. I hope I have not offended anyone, as that was never my intent.
I sincerely wish you all the best of health, whatever way you reach it and whichever guage you use to measure it.
Good luck.
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Postby rvc_ve » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:35 pm

Hey no division whatsoever! just a friandly discussion! you should see me argue at work heheheh! but its cool wushuer has good points to, I just think its not healthy to be to radical about a particular point of view. But its cool! I guess thats why we have so many diferent martial styles anyway! different people with different body types and points of view, who favor different training methods. No method is better than the other, just different for different people and different goals.

Dont worry jerry there's still love in here! heheheh!
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Postby Audi » Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:28 pm

Greetings all,

Thanks again for all the interesting comments.

Kalamondin, you asked why I used the word “quantum” in my original post. I was indeed thinking of something like “quantum states.” From what I understand of current thinking about exercise philosophy, one does not derive a smoothly proportional benefit from different lengths and intensities of aerobic exercise. Twenty minutes of exercise four times a week is not the same as eighty minutes once a week or eleven minutes every day. Walking, jogging, and sprinting the same distance also have differential effects on different body systems.

I was wondering to what extent folks had found quantum effects in their practice of Taijiquan. No one has enough time to do everything they would like, and thus we are faced with choices. If various aspects of Taijiquan are best trained in particular increments, I think this would be value to know in making such choices.

I have heard some people make fairly strong statements, such as that one must do a minimum of three repetitions to make any real advancement. Others seem to imply that ten minutes at a time is enough. I would like to have my intensity of training match my expectations for results.

Michael, I would be interested if you could expand upon what you understand to be the link between meditation, breath control, and cardiovascular fitness. I do not find it surprising to hear health claims for meditation and breath control, but I am surprised to hear that these methods can duplicate the results of other methods of cardiovascular fitness. What kind of meditation and breath control are you talking about?

Take care,
Audi
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