More on Cheng Man-ch'ing and Yang Style T'ai Chi

Postby clarkleroy » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Danny:
<B>Greetings,

In response for information supporting Prof. Cheng's length of study and status as a disciple or "Indoor Student" of Yang Ch'eng-fu, I compiled the following from several sources and now offer it also to this group:

In the foreword to Yang Ch'eng-fu's 1934 text "T'ai Chi Ch'uan T'i Yung Ch'uan Shu", Prof. Cheng gives us an outline of his early
involvement in T'ai Chi. Louis Swaim provides us with an excellent translation of this in his "Yang Chengfu: The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan".

On page 1 of Swaim's translation Prof. Cheng writes:

..."In 1923, I assumed a teaching position at Beijing Fine Arts Academy. A colleague, Liu Yongchen, was good at this art of
Taijiquan. Because I was emaciated and weak, he urged me to study. Barely a month passed before I had to quit because of important commitments, so I was not able to catch on to the art."...

In the text of Yang Ch'eng-fu's earlier book written in 1931, "T'ai Chi Ch'uan Shih Yung Fa", Liu Yongchen (Liu Yung-ch'en) is listed as a senior student of Yang Ch'eng-fu. In 1923, Yang was still in Peking, and it is therefore assumed that Liu was still in touch with his teacher, if not actually still studying with him. Perhaps Prof. Cheng had the chance to meet Yang during this time.

(Indeed, in an interview conducted by William C.C. Hu and published in Black Belt Magazine in January 1965, Prof. Cheng says that he was introduced to Yang in Peking by Liu!)


Yang left Peking in 1928 and traveled to Shanghai where he lived and taught T'ai Chi. (However, Yang died in Canton while on a teaching visit there).

In 1924, Prof. Cheng was invited to teach at the Shanghai College of Fine Arts and he accepted. So, both Yang Ch'eng-fu and Prof. Cheng were living in Shanghai in 1928.


Prof. Cheng continues on page 2 of Swaim's translation:

"In the spring of 1930, because of overwork while establishing the Chinese Academy of Literature and Arts (in Shanghai), I had reached the point of coughing up blood, so I resumed study and practice of taijiquan with my colleagues Xiao Zhongbo (Hsiao Chung-po) and Ye Dami (Yeh Ta-mi)."...

It is interesting that Prof. Cheng uses the term "colleague" in referring Hsiao and Yeh. In the Chinese text Prof. Cheng uses "t'ung shih" (tongshi) which means something like a "co-worker". This implies a most informal and somewhat equal relationship between Hsiao, Yeh and Prof. Cheng...

I could not find Xiao listed in Yang's 1931 list of students, but Yeh Ta-mi is listed as a senior student of T'ien Chao-lin (Tian
Zhaolin) in that text.

Leroy Clark and Key Sun have written a very good article on T'ien found at: http://www.art-of-energetics.com/New/tian_zhaolin.htm

Yeh Ta-mi, it seems, was also close to Yang Ch'eng-fu. In another online TCC forum Leroy Clark wrote: "Ye argued to YCF that Tung's written language was extremely coarse and rough and by publishing Yang's (1931) book would defame the family. Based on Ye's influence on YCF, YCF pulled the book from Tung. The book was eventually written by CMC."

And, from a article of reminiscences of a Mr. Huang Jing-hua also translated by Leroy Clark and Key Sun and presented on another TCC forum:

"Teacher Huang Jing Hua was born in 1909. He went to Shanghai to learn painting in 1925. There, in that art college he befriended Cheng Man Ching. They became close friends. In 1926 the two of them learned tai chi boxing and sword from Ye Da Mi. In 1928 they met great master Yang Chengfu. During this time, Jinghua used Ye's students as practice companions. Later Jing Hua learned boxing from Chengfu."

In this text, Huang is simply saying that both he and Prof. Cheng met Yang Cheng-fu for the first time in 1928, probably through the introduction of Yeh Ta-mi. Thus, we can be reasonably sure that, if Huang's dates are correct, there was probably continued contact with Yang Cheng-fu and his circle of senior students by Prof. Cheng beginning in 1928.


Prof. Cheng continues in Swaim's translation, pg. 2:

..."In the first lunar month of 1932, I met Master Yang Chengfu at Mr. Pu Qiuzhen's house. After the old gentleman had introduced me, I humbly presented myself at Master Yang's door, and received his teachings, including his oral instructions of the inner work."...

My former T'ai Chi classmate, Mark Hennessy, translates this section as, ..."In 1932, P'u Ch'iu-chen introduced me to Yang Ch'eng-fu. After accepting me as a disciple, I recieved the master's oral teaching on the internal martial arts."...(found in "Cheng Man- ch'ing: Master of Five Excellences", pg. 119)"

Doug Wile translates this section as, "Early in 1932 I met Master Yang Ch'eng-fu in the home of P'u Ch'iu-ch'eng. Old P'u introduced me to the master and I humbly asked for instruction. When he orally transmitted the method of internal cultivation (nei-kung) to me, I suddenly understood the meaning of not using ch'i." (from an early issue of T'ai Chi Magazine...sorry, no date available!)


What is to be noticed here is that Prof. Cheng is saying that he became an "Indoor Disciple" of Yang Ch'eng-fu in 1932.

If any of you have the Chinese text of "T'ai Chi Ch'uan T'i Yung Ch'uan Shu" it is on page 3 and begins with "Jen Shen Cheng Yueh" and ends with "K'o Shou Nei Kung".

Within this passage is where Prof. Cheng says "Chih Chui Yu Men", which has the meaning of "I (Cheng) became his (Yang's ) disciple". The Chinese word "Men" literally means "Door". The picture here is of Yang accepting Prof. Cheng "into his door" as a private student/disciple/Indoor Student...all the same meaning.

(Just a side note on Hennessy's translation found in "Cheng Man-ch'ing: Master of Five Excellences"...in the "Publisher Note" found
facing pg. 1, the publisher writes:

"As a final check on the accuracy of the manuscript, the publisher hired Dr. Evelyn Hsieh of the East Asian Languages Department at the University of California at Berkley to read the translation alongside the original Chinese and CORRECT ANY ERRORS (emphasis mine) from an academic perspective. Her corrections and suggestions have subsequently been incorporated in the text."

Therefore, it must be the case that Hennessy's translation of the phrase "Chih Chui Yu Men" as "accepting me as a disciple" is NOT in error!)

The text does not imply that this was the first time he met Yang, and a few minutes later he was a disciple! The process of Prof. Cheng becoming accepted as a "disciple" had to have begun much earlier within Yang's circle.

It is therefore resonable to assume that Prof. Cheng had been practicing with Yang's students and colleagues (e.g. Yeh Ta-mi, Huang Jing-hua and others) in Shanghai under Yang's presence, and had been doing so since at least 1930! Only by putting in the time and being accepted by Yang's students and colleagues could Prof. Cheng have "qualified" to be initiated as an "Indoor Disciple" of Yang!

Mr. P'u, even though he was probably not a T'ai Chi student of Yang Ch'eng-fu, was obviously a close acquaintance of Yang and was acting as Prof. Cheng's sponsor in becoming an "Indoor Disciple" of Yang. A sponsor formally introducing a student to a teacher of any discipline was the accepted way in traditional Chinese society.


And, we also must not forget the incident of Prof. Cheng curing Yang's wife of a serious illness. Indeed Ch'en Wei-ming, a famous senior student and disciple of Yang Ch'eng-fu mentions this occurance himself in his Preface to Prof. Cheng's "Thirteen Chapters"!

If Prof. Cheng had not already been within the circle of Yang's students and colleagues, why would he be asked to help Mrs. Yang? This incident seems to confirm that Prof. Cheng was already "in the loop" so to speak and a respected member of Yang's circle of students!

Ch'en Wei-ming also states the following in his Preface:

"When Master Yang Ch'eng-fu came south (i.e. Shanghai), he (i.e. Prof. Cheng) studied T'ai Chi Ch'uan with him for six years." Ch'en Wei-ming was living and teaching T'ai Chi in Shanghai during this period (1928-1936), so he would have been intimately aware of Yang's circle of students!

(see pg. 1 of Douglas Wile's "Cheng Man-ch'ing's Advanced T'ai Chi Form Instructions" for Ch'en Wei-ming's Preface)


Prof. Cheng continues on pgs 2-3 of Swaim's translation by recounting how he and fellow T'ai Chi classmate, K'uang K'e-ming, convinced Yang to publish his teachings which we have in the 1934 text. K'uang also is listed as a senior student of Yang's in the 1931 text. Apparently K'uang and Prof. Cheng had been friends and T'ai Chi classmates for a while...


Also, this webpage from the Cui Yishi family lists the "Inner Door Disciples" (Pai Men Ti T'zu) of Yang Ch'eng-fu, and has Prof. Cheng listed as the 20th disciple of Yang Ch'eng-fu:

http://www.yongniantaiji.com/contents/newpage2.htm

Cui Yishi was an early senior student and disciple (aka Indoor Student) of Yang Ch'eng-fu in Peking. He started learning from Yang in 1909 and accompanied him to Shanghai in 1928.


Li Yaxuan (aka Li Chunnian) who was also an "Indoor Student" of Yang Ch'eng-fu from 1914, recorded his reminiscences in 1975 about the "Fa Chin" ability of the Yang Family and of some of his classmates in "Yang Shih T'ai Chi T'ui Shou Ch'uan Chen" on pages 51 and 52 of that text...

The classmates Li names in his list are, Wu Hui-ch'uan, Cui Yishi, Tung Yin-chieh, T'ien Chao-lin (Tian Zhaolin) and Cheng Man-ch'ing!

Please note that Li, Cui, Tung and T'ien were all known to be disciples (aka "Indoor Students") of Yang Ch'eng-fu. (Wu's father, Ch'uan Yu, was a student of Yang Lu-ch'an and went on to found the "Wu style" of T'ai Chi. But according to Li in his text, Wu Hui-ch'uan was also consided a student of the Yang's.)

If Prof. Cheng was merely a dilettante at T'ai Chi (as some have claimed) and NOT a Disciple of Yang Ch'eng-fu, then why is he
included on this list with Yang's KNOWN Disciples?

Also, if Prof. Cheng was not also considered somewhat skilled in T'ui Shou among his classmates on the mainland, then why would Li have included him in this list?

A translation of this portion of Li's text by Key Sun and LeRoy Clark can be found on pg. 44 in Volume 11, No. 3, Autumn 2001
of "Qi: The Journal of Tradtional Eastern Health and Fitness." The part concerning Prof. Cheng says:

"Cheng Man-ch'ing had a skill such that after he knew the situation of the opponent, he could come out to attack successfully. So even though he was small of stature, he had skill and courage. Even if an opponent had made preparation, it was to no avail."

I don't know the last time that Li and Prof. Cheng saw each other on the mainland, but I know that they hadn't seen each other since 1949. Yet, Li remembered Prof. Cheng as being highly skilled in the 1940's, even after 25 years of separation!

(The Chinese text of Li's book can be purchased from Plum Publications at: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/lionbks/lb_liyaxuan.htm


Regarding Yang family comments on Cheng Man-ch'ing, Fu Zhongwen stated in an interview published in Inside Kung-fu, April 1993:

"Cheng Man-ch'ing is probably the most famous taijiquan teacher in America. I knew him when he came to Shanghai to study with my uncle Yang Cheng-fu. He was a very great artist. He was very interested in learning and practicing taiji tui shou (push hands), which he did quite heavily
with Yang Cheng-fu and all those around him who were the most skilled...Cheng Man- ch'ing was legitimate, and now it is important for his students and other North American practitioners to research where 'they first drank the water.' The traditional methods of the Yang family style must be preserved..."

The preceding excerpt from Fu Zhongwen's comments is most pertinent to the current discussion, but he went on to say that he felt that he saw differences in the way the short form and long forms were done.

Both Yang Zhenji and Yang Zhenduo have published books acknowledging Cheng Man- ch'ing and his relationship to their father.

In Yang Zhenduo's book "Yang Style Taijiquan" (English version), in Gu Liuxin's preface (page 8), he writes: "In the book A Manual of Taijiquan complied by Zheng Manqing in 1934 for Yang Chengfu, there were 104 photographs."

In his book "Yang Cheng Fu Shi Tai Ji Quan" (page 250) Yang Zhenji writes of his father's 1934 book: "This book was written by my father's disciple Cheng Man-ch'ing based on my father's words and demonstrations. That is a true fact."


To sum up the above, it seems that Prof. Cheng had at least been exposed to Yang's T'ai Chi under Liu Yung-ch'en as early as 1923 when he was in Peking. At some later time, perhaps as early as 1926, but definitely by 1930, Prof. Cheng began his practice of T'ai Chi in earnest within Yang Cheng-fu's circle of students and colleagues.

He finally became a "formal" disciple of Yang in 1932. With Yang's untimely death in 1936, Prof. Cheng's study of T'ai Chi under Master Yang ended. Also in 1936, after the death of his teacher, Prof. Cheng left Shanghai and moved to Nanking.

Therefore, it can be said with full confidence that from at least 1930 until 1936, a period of 7 years, Prof. Cheng was without any doubt studying Yang's T'ai Chi in Shanghai with Yang's senior students and colleagues as well as under the direction and in the presence of Yang Ch'eng-fu himself!


I sincerely hope this presents a somewhat fuller picture of Prof.Cheng's early involvement with Yang T'ai Chi.

In friendship,

Danny Emerick

p.s. Sorry for the long post, but I thought this topic needed as much info as could be gathered.


[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 08-27-2007).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A well known translator/publisher is working on a bio of CMC. She contacted me & i have sought information on that scene with the grandson of Chen WeiMing, Chengfu's first tudi. I suspect the final bio will be informative & a good read for many.
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Postby clarkleroy » Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shugdenla:
<B>Danny,

Excellent work!
I wish all would scrutinize stuff like you do to gain the truth about a thing!

As I said in a previous post perception and reality are usually at opposite ends in these circle because even the Yang side tends to downplay Fu Zhongwen and Zhao Bin's Yang style (Yang relatives) while still espousing all Yang style is the same.

My perception may be off key but that is my fault for seeing that!
The best strategy is for all to enjoy their art to the fullest and live it to the best extent possible.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For clarification of the above statement, Yang Zhenji was the family gatekeeper for many years. In the book written for Yang Zhenji by professional writer & close student Yan Hanxiu, Fu Zhongwen was described as being the model for his father's , i.e., Master Yang Chengfu's taijiquan. In the excellent book entitled, "Rare People in Taijiquan", Yan Hanxiu places Fu Zhongwen at the very front of the many examples of extremely rare taiji people, representing their particularly style development. Therefore, if the gatekeeper says this in print how can an outsider claim otherwise?
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Postby clarkleroy » Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Danny:
<B> Hello yslim!

Thanks for the kind thoughts!

Actually, I believe the duplicate names in #9 and #14 are in error. In the 1931 text there is only ONE Chang Ch'ing-lin listed.

And, also curiously, there are a few other names in the list from the Cui family that are not in the 1931 text of Yang Ch'eng-fu! (Besides, of course, CMC and Tseng Ju-pai who came after the 1931 list was published)

If you or anyone else (ahem....Louis?) have any thoughts on the discrepancies in the names on the two lists I sincerely would like to hear your ideas!

As for Bob, it is NEVER too late to learn Chinese!...Indeed, it seems that all us "wai kuo jen" (aka waiguoren) who study T'ai Chi learn to "ch'ih k'u" a lot quicker by taking up the language rather than by practicing the art!!!

Take care,

Danny

[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 08-29-2007).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A few have asserted that Zhang QinLin received some kind of secret transmission from Jianhou. This is unfounded & a major stretch.

Zhang QinLin was Yang Chengfu's nephew by his second marriage. He assisted his uncle Chengfu in the photos demonstrating applications in the work originally translated by Mr. Chu of Boston.

Zhang's relative position in the early family/lineage may be seen by the comparatively small photo of him used by Chengfu in his book. By comparison in that same work a large photo shows the high position of another person's ranking in the order of transmission. A young Zhang QinLin may be seen in an old photo of Master Chengfu riding in the back seat of an open, old car driven by Zhao Bin with nephew Zhang riding as passenger in the front seat.
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Postby Simon Batten » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:15 pm

Danny: apart from the moves that Da Liu put back into the CMC version and that I have mentioned, the following are also left out of the Da Liu form and also the CMC form: Step Up and Punch Downward, Turn and Kick with Right Heel (a 360 degree turn with kick), and Yeh Ma Feng Tung (Part Wild Horse's Mane). Step Up and Punch Downward is similar to Step Up and Punch Opponent's Pubic Region, included in the CMC and Da Liu forms, but is a punch to the shin. It's odd that Yeh Mah is left out of both the CMC and Da Liu forms as it is repeated on both sides, three times altogether (right, left, right). I think some of the Chinese government official short forms include it, though, such as the 24 form, if I recall correctly. Kind regards, Simon. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Steveg219:
<B>
Good eye! I didn't catch those differences- very interesting how he put these moves back into what is otherwise CMC's version. I have heard of forms that put back in the 8 or 9 (is that correct?) moves which did not make it to the short form.

Do you by any chance know the names of these other moves that are in the original long form?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby Danny » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by clarkleroy:
<B> A young Zhang QinLin may be seen in an old photo of Master Chengfu riding in the back seat of an open, old car driven by Zhao Bin with nephew Zhang riding as passenger in the front seat.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Leroy!

Many thanks for the clarifications and insights!

However, in the photo you are referring to I believe it is a young Chang Ch'ing-lin as the driver with Zhao Bin as the passenger...I wonder if Yang Ch'eng-fu himself ever got behind the wheel?

Danny
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Postby Danny » Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by clarkleroy:
<B> A well known translator/publisher is working on a bio of CMC. She contacted me & i have sought information on that scene with the grandson of Chen WeiMing, Chengfu's first tudi. I suspect the final bio will be informative & a good read for many.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Leroy,

She is a classmate and indeed a serious student of CMC's T'ai Chi...I hope you can help her in her research...

Also, Mark Hennessy is continuing his own endeavors regarding the life and times of Prof. Cheng. I expect his newest publication will be forthcoming in the very near future...

I have also heard that you are in the midst of a project regarding a famous Shanghai T'ai Chi family...the one you are referring to in the "large photo" in Yang Ch'eng-fu's 1931 text.

I am really anxious to see the published results of your findings and the insights into pre-Yang Ch'eng-fu T'ai Chi you have uncovered!

In friendship,

Danny



[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 09-03-2007).]
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Postby Danny » Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Simon Batten:
Danny: apart from the moves that Da Liu put back into the CMC version and that I have mentioned, the following are also left out of the Da Liu form and also the CMC form: Step Up and Punch Downward, Turn and Kick with Right Heel (a 360 degree turn with kick), and Yeh Ma Feng Tung (Part Wild Horse's Mane). Step Up and Punch Downward is similar to Step Up and Punch Opponent's Pubic Region, included in the CMC and Da Liu forms, but is a punch to the shin. It's odd that Yeh Mah is left out of both the CMC and Da Liu forms as it is repeated on both sides, three times altogether (right, left, right). I think some of the Chinese government official short forms include it, though, such as the 24 form, if I recall correctly. Kind regards, Simon. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Simon,

Several of Prof. Cheng's students reintroduced some of the postures from the long form into their renditions...not only Da Liu, but also William C. C. Chen, Dr. Chi Chiang-tao and J. J. Soong. Other senior students of Prof. Cheng also taught/practiced the long form itself...T. T. Liang, Huang Sheng-hsien and K'e Ch'i-hua come to mind.

Significantly, in the last year of his life when he was in Taipei, Prof. Cheng himself mentioned a possible change to the short form to my teacher, Mr. Liu Hsi-heng.

In the transition from Bend Bow/Shoot Tiger to Step Up/Deflect Downward/Parry/Punch, Prof. Cheng suggested to Mr. Liu to insert 2 Roll-Backs (left and right) and a "potential" Piercing Palm (from High Pat on Horse w/ Piercing Palm) with the right hand, before we continued with the "Punch".

This is what Mr. Liu taught to us in Taiwan in the 1980's, and he said it came from Prof. Cheng's comments. So it seems that if Prof. Cheng had lived a little longer, he MAY have added a few changes to his own practice of the short form!

In Friendship,

Danny


[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 09-08-2007).]
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Postby Simon Batten » Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:06 pm

Danny: this is interesting, showing perhaps that forms in general are never entirely 'set in stone'. There seems to be some evidence that even Yang Cheng Fu changed some details in his own form, too. Kind regards, Simon.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Danny:
<B> Hello Simon,

Several of Prof. Cheng's students reintroduced some of the postures from the long form into their renditions...not only Da Liu, but also William C. C. Chen, Dr. Chi Chiang-tao and J. J. Soong. Other senior students of Prof. Cheng also taught/practiced the long form itself...T. T. Liang, Huang Sheng-hsien and K'e Ch'i-hua come to mind.

Significantly, in the last year of his life when he was in Taipei, Prof. Cheng himself mentioned a possible change to the short form to my teacher, Mr. Liu Hsi-heng.

In the transition from Bend Bow/Shoot Tiger to Step Up/Deflect Downward/Parry/Punch, Prof. Cheng suggested to Mr. Liu to insert 2 Roll-Backs (left and right) and a "potential" Piercing Palm (from High Pat on Horse w/ Piercing Palm) with the right hand, before we continued with the "Punch".

This is what Mr. Liu taught to us in Taiwan in the 1980's, and he said it came from Prof. Cheng's comments. So it seems that if Prof. Cheng had lived a little longer, he MAY have added a few changes to his own practice of the short form!

In Friendship,

Danny


[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 09-08-2007).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby laoshiPeer » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Danny:
[B] Hello Simon,

Several of Prof. Cheng's students reintroduced some of the postures from the long form into their renditions...not only Da Liu, but also William C. C. Chen, Dr. Chi Chiang-tao and J. J. Soong. Other senior students of Prof. Cheng also taught/practiced the long form itself...T. T. Liang, Huang Sheng-hsien and K'e Ch'i-hua come to mind.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does anybody know of videos showing dr ChiChiang Tao performing his 47 form yang style taijiquan?
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Re: More on Cheng Man-ch'ing and Yang Style T'ai Chi

Postby Wondo » Thu May 27, 2010 7:41 pm

Thank you very much for this research.
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Re: More on Cheng Man-ch'ing and Yang Style T'ai Chi

Postby Danny » Sun May 30, 2010 6:56 pm

Wondo wrote:Thank you very much for this research.



Thank YOU Wondo for the kind words...

Do you practice Prof. Cheng's T'ai Chi?


In friendship,


Danny
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Re: More on Cheng Man-ch'ing and Yang Style T'ai Chi

Postby mls_72 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:29 pm

Being a CMC person from the start....the only thing i have to say is... I asked Fu Zhong Wen about Cheng Man Ching and he laughed. His translator (his grandson) said the Fu had studied with Yang Chen fu since the age of 9 and followed YCF almost everywhere to help teach. He said CMC was only around a few short years.

CMC did get alot of information and skills from other Yang disciples like Zhang Qinlin.
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Re: More on Cheng Man-ch'ing and Yang Style T'ai Chi

Postby Marc Heyvaert » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:21 pm

Maybe there is some extra information here:

http://www.taiji.net.cn/jiaoliu/wlzt/20 ... 80_2.shtml
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Re: More on Cheng Man-ch'ing and Yang Style T'ai Chi

Postby ShowHong » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:00 am

by JerryKarin » Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:54 am
"Actually they are basically doing the same stuff the Yangs do. I haven't tracked every move on those but it's much the same thing. Fu does it somewhat more like the Yangs. CMC's version of the sword technique, liao, is different from both Fu and Yangs.
I have to say that Yang Zhenduo's rendition of the sword form beats the pants off CMC's as shown in that clip. OK maybe he was old and arthritic or off his form or annoyed about his clothes or I'm just biased or whatever. Just smokes that big time for me.
I've seen him do it way better than this but you can get a flavor of it:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_VBIVGN30wU"

The difference between Yang Zhenduo’s rendition of the sword form and CMC’s is not in which is better by how much, rather, the difference lies in that the two were doing totally different things. Yang Zhenduo was doing a sword routine named Taichi Sword and CMC was doing Taichi and happened to have a sword in his hand. CMC was a true Taichi master such that he could not “do” anything in ways that are not consistent with Taichi principle. As some in martial art circles would say that the sword is the extension of the hand/arm and the hand/arm is the extension of the body, which is particularly true with Taichi sword or anything Taichi in general. Consequently, in sword play, the more prominent the sword action is, the further away is it from Taichi. Or you may say that Taichi sword is the ultimate of the art of the sword – the sword moves as if there were no sword. This is why CMC’s sword form looks like not having much of a form, at least from the point of view of those who know only the (common) sword.

Sincerely,
Show-Hong
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Re: More on Cheng Man-ch'ing and Yang Style T'ai Chi

Postby fumin » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:16 pm

I'm learning the form of CMC system. I happened to have a western sword and played it with my friend.

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/QiiHuqdzEvM/
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/X1j8QrHeLkc/

Enjoy it

Fumin Hao
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