Tung Family Tai Chi

Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby BBTrip » Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:04 pm

I've been reading comments here for a few years and have enjoyed and learned from them.
This is my first post.
It is a link to rare video of Tung Hu Ling’s 3rd set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vGrIgrtfO4

The video is not very clear but still very worthy.

There is much better quality video of his 1st and 2nd set out there but this is the only video of his 3rd set that I've seen.
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby Audi » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:36 am

Thanks for posting this. It is very interesting to see such a good practitioner doing a form that is so close to the Association's and yet has so many minor differences.
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby BBTrip » Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:17 pm

Hello Audi,

Thank you for the response. I’ve greatly enjoyed reading your comments and that of the other frequent contributors on this sight over the past years.

I agree that Tung Hu Ling and the Yang Association Tai Chi are similar.
I think there’s good reason for it.

As far as I can gather, Tung Hu Ling’s father Tung Ying-chieh was a senior student of Yang Ch'eng-fu and also studied with Ch'eng-fu's older brother Yang Shao-hou and at some point became Yang’s chief assistant instructor.

Tung Ying-chieh links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldAmH1zA ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny9biV4DQmo

There’s a story that Yang Cheng Fu was invited to teach in Guangzhou. He brought Tung Ying-chieh and his elder son Yang Shouzhong along. Unfortunately, Cheng Fu had to return to Shanghai with his son. He asked Tung to stay and assigned the teaching to him. Yang Cheng Fu apparently died the following year.

Yang Sau Chung, son of Yang Cheng Fu link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqgZp80S ... re=related

In the 80’s I worked on a Tai Chi project that searched for the oldest know photos or video of Tai Chi masters. I came across a 1929 photograph of the 4th anniversary gathering of the Chih Jou Tai Chi Chuan Association, which appears in the book Tai-chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions, by Wile
In the photo are Yang Cheng Fu and other association members. In that photo, six people are mentioned, Yang Cheng fu, Yang Shao hou, Tung Ying-chieh and Chen Wei-ming.

Chen Wei-ming link:
http://www.peacefuldragonschool.com/forms.cfm

I scour the internet and books for photos of Yang Lu Ch’an doing Tai Chi. Since that seems impossible I search for his students or his son’s and their students Tai Chi.

I continue my search.

If you or anyone else has or knows of photos or videos please post. I would love to see them.

BBTrip
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby Audi » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:19 pm

Hi BB,

As far as I can gather, Tung Hu Ling’s father Tung Ying-chieh was a senior student of Yang Ch'eng-fu and also studied with Ch'eng-fu's older brother Yang Shao-hou and at some point became Yang’s chief assistant instructor.


I was very much aware of the high achievement of Tung Ying-chieh; however, I do not remember knowing about him studying with Yang Shao-hou. Thanks for the info.

In looking at the videos of the Tung's, I noted many minor differences from our form, and a few made me quite curious. I find it interesting to see many of the forms that are "sisters" to ours, noting the commonalities and the differences between all of them. I happen to really like the flavor of the form I have been studying, but seeing closely related forms always helps to open my mind and make it more flexible in considering what is possible.



I had not seen this "video" before. It is great to finally get some idea of what Chen Wei-ming's form looked like.

I had already seen and studied the video of Yang Shouzhong several times, and so this was not something new for me.

Take care,
Audi
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby BBTrip » Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:57 am

Hey Audi,

Great to hear from you.

I had not seen this "video" before. It is great to finally get some idea of what Chen Wei-ming's form looked like.


Glad you liked the Chen Wei-ming video. I enjoy it also. Years ago, someone showed me his book and the pictures of his form stuck with me.

In looking at the videos of the Tung's, I noted many minor differences from our form, and a few made me quite curious. I find it interesting to see many of the forms that are "sisters" to ours, noting the commonalities and the differences between all of them. I happen to really like the flavor of the form I have been studying, but seeing closely related forms always helps to open my mind and make it more flexible in considering what is possible.


If I, in any way have even slightly offended anyone for posting video of other styles on this site please forgive me.

I am just a Tai Chi idiot/nut who found a space that speaks Tai Chi to me.

I am not out to sway anyone from their form. I just appreciate good Tai Chi. After years of enjoying the posts here, I wanted to share.

That said here’s one more post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79lfEBj2Ohs

It is not Yang style but I think it is beautiful Tai Chi. Those of you who have already seen it I will bet you would enjoy seeing it again, those who have not seen it, peek, and you might like it.

In Tai Chi camaraderie,

Peace.


BB
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby T » Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:26 pm

My Sifu was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and taught with Tung Hu Ling in Thailand and as far as I know Tung Ying Chieh never traihned with Yang Shaohou. He did however train in Wu/Hao style prior to training with Yang Chengfu.

As to Tnug Hu Ling; he was a highly skilled practioner of Taijiquan.

And if you want to see direct comparison photos of Tung Ying Chieh and Yang Chengfu yuo can check out this web site (http://www.chipellis.com/)

http://www.chipellis.com/Pictures/compa ... e-pics.htm

http://www.chipellis.com/index2.htm

http://www.chipellis.com/Pictures/Tung- ... h-Pics.htm

http://www.chipellis.com/Pictures/Tung_ ... ctures.htm

Also note the Tung Hu Ling's form looks a bit different from his father's (Tung Ying Chieh)

Tung Ying Chieh's Red Book
http://www.chipellis.com/Writings/Red%2 ... Parker.pdf
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby BBTrip » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:09 am

Hello T,

Thank you for your response. The posting is great.

I happen to own the Red Book and the smaller Red Book(?) illustrating Tai Chi applications.

My Sifu was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and taught with Tung Hu Ling in Thailand and as far as I know Tung Ying Chieh never traihned with Yang Shaohou. He did however train in Wu/Hao style prior to training with Yang Chengfu.


Your Sifu may be right about Tung Ying-chieh not studying with Yang Chengfu’s older brother Yang Shao-hou. I cannot offer any facts on that issue.
What is important to me is that he was a trusted long time student of Yang Chengfu. And, I love his postures.

But, I can point you to, Alex Dong’s website, Tung Ying-chieh’s grandson.

http://www.alexdongtaiji.com/history/tungyingjie.html

Which contains this line: “Tung also studied with Chengfu's older brother Yang Shao-hou (1862-1930)”

Again, thank you for the post and if you know of any video’s or photos of Yang Chengfu’s father, uncle’s , brothers or their students doing Tai Chi please post.

If you are interested, there is a video of Tung Ying-Chieh doing the first section at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwJ1wfBQBPk


BB
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby T » Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:43 pm

Thank You

And I have seen Alex’s website before and he may or may not be correct. He is in the Tung Family but he is a student of his father (Dong Zeng Chen ) who was a student of his grandfather (Tung Hu Ling) who was a student of his great grandfather (Tung Ying Chieh)

My sifu was a student of Tung Ying Chieh.

But I will send the link to my sifu and see what he has to say, it could be I misunderstood

Thanks
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby BBTrip » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:53 am

Hello T,

Great to hear from you again.

And I have seen Alex’s website before and he may or may not be correct. He is in the Tung Family but he is a student of his father (Dong Zeng Chen ) who was a student of his grandfather (Tung Hu Ling) who was a student of his great grandfather (Tung Ying Chieh)

My sifu was a student of Tung Ying Chieh.

But I will send the link to my sifu and see what he has to say, it could be I misunderstood


Please let your Sifu know that I'm not challenging him or Alex on knowledge of Tung Ying Chieh. I'm telling you now If your Sifu shows up at my door, I'm running.

What I'm really, really interested in are pictures or video of Yang Lu Chan’s movement, or his sons, or Yang Chengfu's movement.

I cannot, so…I enjoy Tung Ying Chieh's video of Yang style Tai Chi,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwJ1wfBQBPk

Fu Zhong Wen's,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef3l33ZuaC0

Chen Wei Ming's,
http://www.peacefuldragonschool.com/forms.cfm

because they are long time trusted students of Yang Chengfu.

I would love to see video or picture of others that studied with Yang Chengfu,

Presently we have Yang Jun and Yang Zhenduo on video teaching Yang Style around the world. On that note, Thank you Yang Jun for your detailed explanations of push hands practice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiQu_EroF-k

And the videos you have been posting on this site. Yum. You’ve answered the small questions on Yang Tai Chi for me that so many others have not.

I originally posted Tung Hu Ling's video on this site because the fluidity of his movement is impressive to me and I’ve only seen his 1st and 2nd section. So when he I saw that someone post his 3rd section I thought others would like to see it too.

By the way, if anyone has the full video of Tung Ying Chieh playing Yang Style sword please, please post. I've seen a portion of his Yang Style sword, would love to see the rest.

But, even after seeing the above and videos of the present day Yang’s and the others I would still love to see more. I want to see Video that gets as close to Yang Lu Chan as possible.

In addition, any lineage video on Yang style small and medium frames, please post.

I just think it'd be so cool.

BB
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby T » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:21 pm

Well after I’m done telling him what you said… :D

No worries, I did not think you were challenging anybody. Like I said, I could have misunderstood what he was saying… I will ask him about it again the next time I see him.

As to videos, my sifu and I have had many conversations about this; I believe in his youth he did see Yang Shouzhong and obviously he saw a lot of Tung Ying Chieh, but he wishes that there were videos of Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou, Yang Jianhou, Yang Shaohou and Yang Chengfu. He would love to see them and believes that it would put many of the debates that go on these days to other Yang lineages to rest.

Personally I’d love to see any videos of the Yang family past or present or any of the top students of the Yang family,

And I have sent him Videos of Fu Zhongwen before and he thought they are great and showed a very high level understanding

As a matter of fact I sent him the clips of Chen Wei Ming that you link just a few minutes ago, thanks
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby Audi » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:09 am

If I, in any way have even slightly offended anyone for posting video of other styles on this site please forgive me.


I was not offended in the slightest. I think one of the purposes of this board is actually to welcome discussion of other styles and other approaches, even to Yang Style Tai Chi.

Code: Select all
That said here’s one more post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79lfEBj2Ohs

It is not Yang style but I think it is beautiful Tai Chi. Those of you who have already seen it I will bet you would enjoy seeing it again, those who have not seen it, peek, and you might like it.

Wow, that is an extraordinary performance. I especially like the sweep. I have to say, however, that I am glad that is not the form I am supposed to be practicing every day. My legs hurt just looking at the video clip. :)

As to videos, my sifu and I have had many conversations about this; I believe in his youth he did see Yang Shouzhong and obviously he saw a lot of Tung Ying Chieh, but he wishes that there were videos of Yang Luchan, Yang Banhou, Yang Jianhou, Yang Shaohou and Yang Chengfu. He would love to see them and believes that it would put many of the debates that go on these days to other Yang lineages to rest.

This would be nice, but then again we have detailed pictures of Yang Chengfu and video of Cheng Man-ch'ing, and folks still manage to debate their postures and methods.
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby BBTrip » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:29 pm

Hello Audi,
Once again great to hear from you.

Wow, that is an extraordinary performance. I especially like the sweep. I have to say, however, that I am glad that is not the form I am supposed to be practicing every day. My legs hurt just looking at the video clip.


There are videos of others that sit as low in their postures as the tai chi performer in the video. One in particular, titled

Low Frame as passed down by Yang Banhou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrIcXONH ... re=related

I am not saying this is Yang Family linage. I really don’t know. I only post it in reference to your “leg hurting” comment on the low posture of the performer in the earlier video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79lfEBj2Ohs

In my opinion, the new link that I am posting is not as graceful and fluid as the video you were commenting about but some may find it interesting.
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby Audi » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:12 pm

Low Frame as passed down by Yang Banhou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrIcXONH ... re=related

I am not saying this is Yang Family linage. I really don’t know.


As far as I understand, low-frame training was/is definitely part of the traditional curriculum. This performance is definitely quite impressive; however, I must say that I have a soft spot for the medium-stance form. Even so, it is interesting how this practitioner still maintains much of the subtlety and elegance of the medium frame.

One thing that puzzles me about the forms that are said to come through Yang Banhou is that they all seem quite large; however, I understand Banhou as having favored a small frame. In this performance, the practitioner goes as far as taking steps even where Yang Chengfu's form merely has weight shifts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79lfEBj2Ohs

In my opinion, the new link that I am posting is not as graceful and fluid as the video you were commenting about but some may find it interesting.


I think your eyes are better than mine, because I cannot tell the difference :) . Both look very fluid to me. Another thing that impresses me is the continuity and clarity of his waist movement and Dantian rotations. I also like the way this style subtly expresses Fajin in the hands.
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby BBTrip » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:22 pm

Hey Audi,
How's it going?

I think your eyes are better than mine, because I cannot tell the difference :) . Both look very fluid to me.


Your eyes are good; they are both pretty fluid. It was a poor comment on my part. I never should have said it.

Here’s a video many people may have seen. It’s Yang Taiji Dao by Yang Zhenji.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj0GS_Vb-88

And, I saw a two-person sword demo that is kind of smooth. If interested check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9zS_OgV ... rRu_xBp4o0
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Re: Tung Family Tai Chi

Postby Audi » Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:54 am

Hi BB,

Here’s a video many people may have seen. It’s Yang Taiji Dao by Yang Zhenji.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj0GS_Vb-88


This is basically the form that we do; although it is interesting to see the small differences.

And, I saw a two-person sword demo that is kind of smooth. If interested check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9zS_OgV ... rRu_xBp4o0


This is nice and is similar to the tiny bit of two-person sword work I have done. From what you have posted before, you might be interested in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY_HV3YlAjw
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