"When one part moves..."

Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby UniTaichi » Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:22 am

Hi Bob,

It not a big deal. We all do that. :oops: If I am not wrong, I believed yslim might have mistaken as well. :? (Hi yslim, maybe you can let me know what is your question. thks.)

My way of learning seems similar to yours. First my teacher give a step-by-step instruction to do one move. After which I sort of get it into the body and mind and ''just do it''. Nike moment ? In this modern age, I guess teachers have to do what you described to relieve the confusion. I have due respect for those, especially Westerners, who practice any variety or form of Taichi (as long as they follow the taichi principle. Whether they get it or not, does not matter. It's the spirit). They are keeping the flame alive and passing the torch to the next generation.

Also from your observation of Yang and Wu style, the Large Frame (hand/feet), Medium(knee/elbow) and Small(lean), I further understood what are the different Fajin methods between them. I usually scan every post for such ''gems''. Every piece contribute to make the Big Taichi Picture.

Cheers,
UniTaichi
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby yslim » Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:50 pm

UniTaichi wrote:Hi Bob,

It not a big deal. We all do that. :oops: If I am not wrong, I believed yslim might have mistaken as well. :? (Hi yslim, maybe you can let me know what is your question. thks.)

My way of learning seems similar to yours. First my teacher give a step-by-step instruction to do one move. After which I sort of get it into the body and mind and ''just do it''.

Cheers,
UniTaichi



HI UNITAICHI, (NOT SCREAMING, JUST LOVE LG. PRINT)

THANK YOU FOR LETTING ASK THIS QUESTION ONE MORE TIME.

THE CAUSE 1: YOU SAID " THIS IS THE 2 OF SEVERAL OTHER METHOD OF FAJIN WE ARE TRAINING NOW.BOTH ARE TO ME DIFFERENT WAY OF EXPRESSING ' 4 OZ DEFLECTING 1000LBS'. "

THE CAUSE 2: AUDI ASKED YOU "COULD YOU ELABORATE ON HOW YOU SEE '4 OZ DEFLECTING 1000 LBS' IN THIS APHORISM ?

THE CAUSE 3 : YOU DID ANSWERED AUDI, BUT NO WHERE I READ AGAIN THIS APHORISM TO FORM
A CLEAR PICTURE HOW YOU SEE THIS CONNECTION.

THE EFFECT: BRING ME BACK TO ASK " COULD YOU BE KIND ENOUGH TO ELABORATE ON HOW YOU SEE '4 OZ DEFLECTING 1000LBS?"

THE REASON I ASK BECAUSE I WANT TO KNOW WHAT AND HOW YOU APPLY THE TAIJI PRINCIPLE TO SEE THE GEMS ". MAYBE I CAN STEAL IT

ALIBABA LIM
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby UniTaichi » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:13 am

Hi yslim,
Ok. I will elaborate in another way since you did not find the ''connection''. But I feel I am answering something on Karma(cause and effect) 8) . I will make it simple.

When we used these two type of fajin, we apply 4oz of Jin to emit the partner 1000lb.(self-explanatory) :mrgreen:
For ''bow & arrrow' we used Medium Frame.(knees and elbow)
For Dantian fajin we used Small Frame.

The other type is for Large Frame, we used ''whole body Jin'' or the ''Six Harmony Jin'' similar to Chen taichi and other IMA like Bagua Zhang (which I do) and Xingyi. Six Harmony requires more movements involving hands, feet, body.

Seldom it can be fully explained in writing(unless one is very good in written expression). I am sure most of the members are aware but we do our best in forums like this. It is reasonable that some connect and some don't. Which is why I like to read more and learn how to express it better so that more can ''get it''
With more forums and postings, we are getting there.

I have read your other postings here and I believe you are teaching or training similar taichi. Maybe you could tell us how you connect to this particular aphorism for our understanding.

Last but not least, the ''gems'' are for each individual to unearth and to have, therefore no need to steal. :roll:

Cheers,
UniTaichi
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby Bob Ashmore » Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:26 pm

Uni,
I would like to take credit for the large, medium, small reference, but it's not mine.
I picked it up from Tai Chi Magazine, in an article last month.
I cannot remember who said it. I think it was from an article by Alex Dong, but I can not say for certain.
If I can find the magazine again (they tend to get put down somewhere and then I don't find them again for a while, it's currently right where I put it though I have no idea where that is) I will find out and let you know.
But it gave me a way to explain the different frame sizes that is very easy to demonstrate and understand. Not the entire idea for frame size, but certainly something concrete and accurate that I have used when explaining this to my students.
I'm teaching both Yang and Wu style right now, so I needed something I could point to that explained to my students why each is done slightly differently. This came at a very good time for me.
Unfortunately I don't have a lot of students who are interested in Wu style right now. I had a few who were curious and they took the class, but no one has resigned up for it for my Winter classes.
I guess the curiosity has been assuaged now and the decision made to stick with Yang by all of them.
That's OK, one style is enough for most people to deal with and we had fun learning a little about small frame together.
But I digress.

Bob
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby UniTaichi » Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:19 am

Hi Bob,

The moment I elaborate on the aphorism, we already disgressed. 8)

My credit to you is for posting the reference. If not for the posting, I would not have read it and connect them together. It is quite impossible for everyone to read every article or have the resources like some of the members here. So all postings have the potential of having a few gems.

For most one style is offen enough. I am sure Yang have Medium and Small frame as well. I am a Taichi learner at the moment but do selective teaching on various Qigong, so I can understand how the curiosity works.

Cheers,
UniTaichi
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby Jim R » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:22 pm

Seasons Greetings,
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:40 pm

I only have a moment so I will be brief.
When a circle moves all parts of it move, yet the center remains in place while moving.
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby Jim R » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:07 pm

"Still movement does exist but may not be perceiveable" Joy Tsung Hwa. I would say not "perceiveable" because one is using legs as an empowering agent instead of the waist.
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby Jim R » Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:32 pm

Seasons Greetings,
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby Louis Swaim » Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:10 pm

Greetings Jim,

When I first encountered Jou Tsung Hwa’s enunciation of the torso method years ago, it had a profound effect on my practice.

Is there anything in your reading of Master Jou’s reflections on this matter that supports your stated proposition that the taijiquan aphorism “When one part moves, there is no part that does not move. . .” is a “glaring error?” I only see support there that Wu Yuxiang's saying is true, and that it is important for the practitioner to understand it correctly.

Take care,
Louis
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby Jim R » Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:19 pm

Felicitations Louis, Bob,



Jim R
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby Louis Swaim » Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:25 pm

Greeting Jim,

I posted my response to your earlier message this morning before seeing your follow-up message:

‘Bottom line, if you torque, "move the knee while all parts move...", wobble the knee and you feel pain, how on earth is it right to say "when all parts move, everything moves"? Be honest and try this in your TAIJI LAB before disagreeing with me.’

Honestly, you have stated the question poorly. A good taijiquan practitioner will know that movement that torques the knee is not good movement, and that wobbling indicates lack of skill. That does not mean there can or will be no movement. You know that I’ve seen the video of Master Hwa doing the leg sweep maneuvre that you describe. You know that there is observable movement in his torso and in his leg, as well there should be.

If we agree with Master Jou’s statement that “movement does exist but may not be perceivable,” then it’s all the more essential that we observe motion in the body that is perceivable, “moment-by-moment.”

Take care,
Louis
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:26 pm

Jim R,
I just tried your experiment. I have to assume you are talking about Double Lotus Kick? If so, my experience does not seem to be the same as yours.
I only experience knee pain or excessive torque in the "still", weight bearing knee if I try to unnaturally force it to remain perfectly still. As long as I use it naturally, in a relaxed, integrated fashion with the rest of my body, then I have no trouble with wobbling, no pain, and I find much greater energy is transferred to my sweeping leg while my root remains very strong.
I contend that if your knees are wobbling that is when you would most likely experience some kind of knee pain as they go out of your control and so outside of their natural range of motion.
However, I believe that trying to force your knee to stay completely still would be one of the best prescriptions to in fact get it to wobble. As you clench the muscles around your knee to force them not to move as they normally and naturally would, this will cause sympathetic tightening in even more muscles around them, which would then cause you to go off balance, forcing you to then clench more muscles in the leg, and eventually into the torso, to maintain balance, which in turn would fatigue them making them less able to bear your weight, making you wobble even more.
Keep that knee relaxed, naturally straight, and use it as it was intended to be used, relaxed and integrated with the rest of your body, and you shouldn't "wobble" at all. You'll move a bit, but that's normal and is part of the movement along with the rest of your body.

Now that I've tried your experiment and disagree with your contention, do me a favor: define "movement".
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby Jim R » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:48 pm

Happy Holidays.


Jim R
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Re: "When one part moves..."

Postby Louis Swaim » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:35 pm

Greetings Jim,

Re: ‘In the spirit of the season and in the best I can offer by way of "yielding". I yield, every one of you are correct and I am incorrect.’

Well, that doesn’t feel quite fair—to the discussion, or to yourself. Part of what I’ve been arguing against is the taking of a hard position that asserts one interpretation is “correct” or “incorrect” with regard to interpretations of the taiji classics. That tends to close off any potential for learning unexpected insights by exploring the meaning of puzzling aphorisms in one’s personal practice.

Some of your posts raised questions for me that I wish we could further engage. For example, when you write, “It is important to keep localized nerve activity dormant and let the qi from the body take over,” I just can’t imagine how keeping “nerve activity dormant” could be justified as a good thing in a living human body. Or when you write that “A good example on the importance of stillness (yin) is the sweeping leg move. . . ,” I wonder how you arrived at the notion that yin means “stillness.”

I’ll just continue the discussion with some remarks in Master Jou’s book that you did not quote:

“What do torso method movments look like? No parts of the body move independently; the movement of any part is contingent on the matched motion of all other parts and all parts are continuously alternating between the extremes of yin and yang. Only those who reach this stage can truly be said to be practicing taiji; yet these are few indeed. Most taiji players are working on the principles that define the torso method, but the breakthrough that marks mastery of this stage is elusive.”
Jou Tsung Hwa, The Dao of Taijiquan, p. 12.

Take care,
Louis
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