"When one part moves..."

[Bob Ashmore]

Jim R,
Happy Holidays, whichever ones you're celebrating. Personally, I like them all.
Why would you want to end the discussion now? We're just reaching the good part! I'm quite enjoying it and there have been no flames that I've seen.
And we are not "all correct" and you are not "incorrect".
Taijiquan doesn't really work in one, immutable fashion. We can all be "correct" on the same issue and still disagree on how we'd say it to each other. In fact, that happens ALL the time.
This art is all about how you perceive it and we all feel it differently. We will each have our own perspective and every one of them can be "correct", from our own point of view.

The only point I was trying to make was that "movement" means different things to different people. It's all relative to how you view "movement".
I've learned to have an adjustable view because...
Think of a record spinning on a player (OK, I'm showing my age here, but bear with me).
The record is "moving", right? It's spinning around in a very visible circle, so it has to be moving...
Or is it? The "record" itself isn't actually doing anything. The record player is spinning it around, it doesn't do it on its own.
So... Is it moving?
Another tangent.
Think dead center of the spindle. It's "moving" right?
Or is it? Can you really call that "moving"? It's definitely spinning, but it's not going anywhere, it's staying right there in one place.
But it's spinning around in that place quite energetically.
Is this "moving" or not?
Taijiquan functions very much like a record player, the way I see it. No one else has to see it that way, in fact I'm quite sure very few would.
In my perspective, I see the spindle like the root in my Taijiquan; it's moving but very clearly staying in one place.
Yes, it's a dichotomy.
Welcome to Taijiquan, where you will hear sayings like;
Seek the straight in the curve and the curve in the straight.
To go left, first you must go right. To go up, first you must go down.
And my personal favorite (which I use all the time whem I'm teaching now that I "get it"):
Student: Lao Shi, is that an opening or a closing?
Teacher: Yes.

If your personal view of Taijiquan is that you need that still place, then keep your still place.
No one here sees it the same way you do, and we don't have to.
It doesn't make you incorrect or us correct. It's all relative.

[Bob Ashmore]

Jim R,

Oh, and I just thought of something that I can tell you that I have personally found to be very, very perplexing for me and my personal point of view on Taijiquan and that has caused me many days full of anguish, has launched more than one discussion (some on here) where I have been on the receiving end of "You're WRONG!" when I've brought it up and just all the way around makes me want to pull my hair out and go home over.
The Waist (Yao) vs. the Hip (Kua).
I come from a school where the Waist (Yao) is considered secondary to hips/legs (kua). Seriously, the teacher I learned about these things from says, very clearly, "Put your hip into it! Without your hip, you have no power. Use the hip." Further, he taught that the waist (dantien) is like the transmission on your car, channeling power but not creating it, and that your legs/hips are the engine that drives you.
I studied in that school for a LONG time and had that concept pretty much carved in stone in my head (there's a lot of rocks in there).
Then I began to study at a Yang Cheng Fu Center and my teacher told me that all of these things, "Come from the waist."
WTF? (pardon my French, but I did say that more than once)
This seemed to me to be COMPLETELY wrong and I made that clear, at length.
It took me a LONG, LONG, LONG time to come to grips with this concept to where I could reconcile the waist/hip dichotomy and begin to use them both in the manner I do.
That may not be anything like anyone else does/sees it. And it doesn't have to be.
How I do/see it now works for me, very well. I can stand up better now to all kinds of energy, incoming, outgoing, whatever, because now I have a much greater understanding of the anatomy of the human body and have researched it from many angles.
Throw into the mix what Chen Juan Femal and her brother (whose name I simply cannot remember right now, Sorry Master Chen!) taught me about using my hips at the Symposium...
Throw in what GM Yang Jun and some of his excellent teachers have taught me about using my waist...
Throw in articles like Chen Zhonghua wrote (http://practicalmethod.com/lang/en/2010 ... ohn-brown/) on just this very thing, and my "personal view" of the "Yao/Kua" and how to use them is a HUGE mishmash that most "traditional" Taijiquan practitioners would run screaming from.

Just for the record, I no longer see "Yao/Kua" as being two separate things with one being more "correct" to use than the other. I believe they are one integrated unit with separate parts that have to work together correctly in a coordinated manner for Taijiquan to happen.

I tell you this to show you that I know where you are at right now. It's very frustrating to have your own "personal view" and not be able to express it in a fashion that others can use to see it like you do.
Just go back and read some of my early posts if you want to see that in action. I got ganged up on all the time.
Just stay the course, reorganize your thoughts, and let us know what you think.
Of course we'll argue with, dissect and try to redirect your thinking at the same time.
That's the fun part! We all learn.

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings Bob,

You wrote: "Just for the record, I no longer see "Yao/Kua" as being two separate things with one being more "correct" to use than the other. I believe they are one integrated unit with separate parts that have to work together correctly in a coordinated manner for Taijiquan to happen."

That's an excellent observation. In Yang Chengfu's form instructions, he almost always mentioned the waist and kua together, as in the phrase 鬆腰跨 "Loosen the waist and the kua." The two terms could well be translated as a combined term: yao/kua. The terms yao/kua appear together in The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan on pages 21, 27, 37, 44, 49, 54, 61, 64, and 81.

--Louis

[Bob Ashmore]

Louis,
That's good to know. Now. It might have been helpful earlier, but I also might not have understood it any sooner.
Understanding changes over time. I probably wasn't ready for it yet.

My personal journey down the Yao/Kua path was a bit bumpy due to many misconceptions I had about the use of each of these body parts. Most of that came about because of my strange journey into the art. I have followed a convoluted path.
I was introduced to Taijiquan by a teacher in the Dong lineage, a YCF lineage. Same form, but done a bit larger and more rounded (if you can believe it).
At that school I never heard the words Yao or Kua. Simply were never mentioned. The teaching was almost entirely the "follow me" type and theory was a bit thin.
Of course, I was totally new to the the whole thing and only studied there for a little under two years before my teacher moved away and the school closed. So there may have been a lot going on that I didn't see/understand.
Then I began to train at a Wu Chien Chuan lineage school with some of Si Kung Eddie Wu's disciples. There I heard about "hips", or kua. At first I was taught a series of exercises that were designed to 'loosen' the hips, before I was taught anything else actually. After a while (about a month) I was moved on to learning their long form using their "beginners breakdown" of the Wu Chien Chuan form. Very square, very piece by piece approach to learning. This is broken down to individual body parts being moved one at a time in an almost robotic fashion.
This was the first time I ever heard of "Yao", waist. It was mentioned, but I was told only to keep it loose and flexible and that the kua, the hips, would do all the work; turning, moving, all done by the hips with the waist just following along.
After a time, and as my form began to get smoother and more integrated, I was told that the waist was good for balance, to be used like a counterweight. Then later still that it was to be used like a steering wheel (mentioned above), then later still that it was like the transmission in a car (also mentioned above).
And that is how I thought of it and used it for my entire time in that school.
If you look him up on Youtube you will find a video by Si Kung Eddie Wu where he discusses the "Three Sections, Nine Parts" of the body. I learned this over and over again, until I knew it by heart. In that you will clearly see what Eddie teaches about the difference between "Yao" and "Kua" and what each is used for. This is very different from how Yang Loashi teaches. (I teach this to all of my students, but I mention that each part is equally important and that they must work together rather then pushing one over the other)
This was the cause of the biggest problems I encountered after I moved half way across the country and changed schools and styles. One school taught me to be "hip centric" the next school of supposedly the same art then taught me to be "waist centric".
That's extremely confusing.
I must admit to still being slightly more hip centric than waist centric. I use them together now, much like Master Chen discusses in his article that I posted the link to. In fact, nearly identically. But my original training was to "move from the hip" and to "put my hip into it". It's difficult to change that once it's been so deeply ingrained, so I find myself using my hips probably a little more than my waist.
There are times though when a more waist centric usage is preferable and I have managed to bring myself around to using it quite a bit more than I did before.
This all comes back to the "frame size" that is being used and what the intent is for each movement, I have discovered.
I will probably always use a slightly smaller frame than Traditional Yang Family Tai Chi teaches (I trained Wu Chien Chuan style Taijiquan for just as long as I've been training TYFTCC, but I did Wu style first, my time at the Dong school was pretty much erased by my time at the Wu school, I had forgotten almost all of it after fifteen years of Wu style so I can't really say it influenced me all that much) so I tend to use my hips just a bit more than my waist.
Chen Juan Femal worked with me a bit at the Symposium on my waist rotation, it seems I learned it backwards for some reason (something I have found a lot of people do) and she got me turned around in my direction which sent my Taijiquan soaring. The connection was immediate, I found the mother load of energy, and I have since gone on to a tremendous spurt of self discovery about Taijiquan all the way around.
That journey lead me back to training Wu style again, and that has lead me to a much deeper understanding of how both styles are the same. I now split my time almost half and half between them. In fact, I have an "every other day" policy in which I do only TYFTCC one day and WCC style the next. This seems to have had a profound effect on my Taijiquan in general. I do them both much better and with greater understanding overall because of it.

Bob

[Louis Swaim]

Hi Bob,

I definitely am in the yao/kua camp, and think that it’s important to think in terms of the yao and kua working in an integrative manner. As I stated above, yao and kua are nearly always mentioned together in Yang Chengfu’s form instructions, and the clear implication is that they work together. In Mark Hennessy’s book translation of Zheng Manqing’s book, Master Cheng’s New Method of Taichi Ch’uan Self-Cultivation, he notes Professor Zheng’s use of yao/kua, and claims his use of the words as a compound was his own invention or innovation. In fact, yao/kua also appears in YCF’s earlier book, Taijiquan Shiyongfa, which appeared before Zheng was in the picture.

As for whether the “source” of jin is in the waist, the kua, or whatever, I have a lot of thoughts on that. One thing I always try to do when analyzing traditional taijiquan teachings is to avoid logical fallacies. One logical fallacy Westerners are inclined to fall into is expressed in latin as cum hoc ergo propter hoc—the notion that correlation proves causation. The thinker David Hume was particularly adept in pointing out to fellow philosophers and scientists that correlation does not imply causation. While Westerners tended to be particularly preoccupied with causality, first causes, and final causes, in general Chinese thinkers were not so preoccupied with teleological questions like these. This isn’t to say we don’t find instances in traditional taiji classics that speak of one thing causing another thing, or one thing being the source or locus of something else, but I think we err when we read too much of our own preoccupation with causality into traditional taiji documents. I think this is particularly important to keep in mind with regard to movement in the human body. It’s not always immediately evident how force is conducted into kinetic action in human movement, whether intuitively or through careful scientific experimentation.

So I keep this in mind when reflecting on traditional taijiquan sayings like the following:

"It is rooted in the feet, issued by the legs, governed by the waist, and expressed in the fingers. From the feet, to the legs, then to the waist, always there must be complete integration into one qi."

It is expressed as a sequence or progression, and reflects (for me, at least) how the movement of jin feels. But note that the “money” in the quote is “complete integration into one qi.” If I may say, integration here trumps causality. Preoccupation with causality may in fact be a distraction from understanding the more meaningful message. Yang Chengfu’s Seventh Essential about synchronizing the upper and lower body quotes this progression, but his emphasis is on the integration (it’s “upper and lower follow one another”—there’s no priority there), and he reiterates that if one part is not moving, the body will be in disarray. It’s a given that “if one part moves, there is no part that does not move,” but the key is in using one’s awareness of that reality to hone one’s movement to a finer degree of integration.

Take care,
Louis

[yslim]

Jim R,
I just tried your experiment. I have to assume you are talking about Double Lotus Kick? If so, my experience does not seem to be the same as yours.
I only experience knee pain or excessive torque in the "still", weight bearing knee if I try to unnaturally force it to remain perfectly still. As long as I use it naturally, in a relaxed, integrated fashion with the rest of my body, then I have no trouble with wobbling, no pain, and I find much greater energy is transferred to my sweeping leg while my root remains very strong.
I contend that if your knees are wobbling that is when you would most likely experience some kind of knee pain as they go out of your control and so outside of their natural range of motion.
However, I believe that trying to force your knee to stay completely still would be one of the best prescriptions to in fact get it to wobble. As you clench the muscles around your knee to force them not to move as they normally and naturally would, this will cause sympathetic tightening in even more muscles around them, which would then cause you to go off balance, forcing you to then clench more muscles in the leg, and eventually into the torso, to maintain balance, which in turn would fatigue them making them less able to bear your weight, making you wobble even more.
Keep that knee relaxed, naturally straight, and use it as it was intended to be used, relaxed and integrated with the rest of your body, and you shouldn't "wobble" at all. You'll move a bit, but that's normal and is part of the movement along with the rest of your body.

Now that I've tried your experiment and disagree with your contention, do me a favor: define "movement".

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL. MAY YOU IN 2011 WILL HAVE A MERRY LOOPING END.

I LIKE LARGE PRINT AND I AM NOT SCREAMING.

HI BOB, I SALUTE YOU FOR YOUR DEDICATION TO LAB WORK ON TAIJI PRACTICE WITH PRINCIPLE, AND VOICED YOUR EXPERIENCE IN DETAILS WITH YOUR OWN WORDS INSTEAD OF PARROTING AS A BROKEN RECORD. YOU SHOW GOOD SKILL TO DEMONSTRATING THE PROCESS OF IMA. IN MY OPINION YOU HAVE OMITTING THE YIN/YANG PARTS ON THIS ONE, PERHAPS YOU DID NOT HAVE THE TIME FOR IT. WHICH IS TOO BAD OTHERWISE IS OK. I GOT THE TAIJI LOOPS COVERED.

WHAT REALLY CAUGHT MY EYE WAS THIS..."Now that I've tried your experiment and disagree with your contention, do me a favor: define "movement".[/quote]

I COULDN'T HELP IT BUT TO ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION ON "relaxed". WHAT YOU CONSIDER RELAXED? AND HOW YIN/YANG PLAY IN THIS PROCESS TO "integrated with the rest of your body"? (Keep that knee relaxed, naturally straight, and use it as it was intended to be used, relaxed and integrated with the rest of your body, and you shouldn't "wobble" at all. You'll move a bit, but that's normal and is part of the movement along with the rest of your body.) PLEASE DON'T GET ME WRONG THAT I THINK YOU ARE WRONG. I JUST WANT TO DOUBLE CHECK WITH YOU TO SEE IF I"M ON THE RIGHT PATH WITH YOUR TAIJI PRINCIPLE TO PRACTICE TAIJI FOR HEALTH.
MY EGGNOG MAKE ME ASK THIS QUESTION. HOLIDAY IS A RISKY TIME TO ASK QUESTION....LIKE "CAN YOU SPARE ME TEN BUCKS? I LIKE TO TAKE JIM TO STARBUCKS AND PICK HIS BRAIN.

MERRY XMAS TO YOU AND YOURS,
YSLIM

[Bob Ashmore]

It's funny, because when I first started training YCF style Taijiquan I was actually told by my teacher to stop using my hips and to "move from your waist".
I remember looking at him like he'd lost his mind and asking, "So I'm never going to take a step when I'm doing Yang style Taiji?"
And that pretty much started an eleven year running debate on hips vs. waist as "the origin of movement".
I was firmly in the hip camp, others in the waist camp, only Taiji Jim was in the "both of them at the same time, together" camp (I should listen to that guy more often, but it's so much fun to watch him roll his eyes and sigh before he tries to straighten me out that I can't help but get him started up from time to time).
And that's how it stayed until after the Symposium, when many dedicated teachers and Masters managed to convince me to at least TRY to use them equally.
Since then, I've found that to be the best way.
But it sure was fun going and back and forth all that time, everyone working hard to prove their particular point of view.
We all learned a lot from it, which is the most important thing after all.

Yslim,
You hit it right on the head. If I started trying to work out the Yin/Yang of movement in this forum, my postings would be longer than anyone would ever care to look at.
Yin/Yang relationships are simple, complex, interweaving, always changing...
How do you describe them in words everyone will understand/agree on?
As soon as you do, they change again anyway, so it's like chasing your own tail.
My students ask me, "Is this Yin or Yang?" and I always answer the same way, "Yes."
What else can you say?

Relax. Such a simple word. You'd think it would be easy.
You hear it all the time, "Relax, relax, relax", it's every teachers mantra.
But what is it?
Understanding changes over time. My understanding of "sung", which is what we're talking about in reality, is always changing.
I will have much more time tomorrow to speak to this issue, so will defer until then.

Happy New Year to all of my Taiji friends.

[yslim]

[quote="Bob Ashmore"]
Yslim,
You hit it right on the head. If I started trying to work out the Yin/Yang of movement in this forum, my postings would be longer than anyone would ever care to look at.
Yin/Yang relationships are simple, complex, interweaving, always changing...
How do you describe them in words everyone will understand/agree on?

HI BOB AND CO.,

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE TAIJI. WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT YIN YANG IN LENGTH. THEREFORE THE POSTING SHOULD BE LONGER THE BETTER. WOULDN'T YOU THINK SO? BUT JUST DON'T MAKE ME ASK "WHERE'S THE BEEF?" IT MAKE ME SOUND LIKE A BAD GUY.

HOW ABOUT TRY THIS FOR SIZE?

"TAIJI HAVE YIN YANG, BUT YIN YANG IS NOT TAIJI . TO BE TAIJI, YIN YANG MUST BE ONE. TO BE ONE,THERE MUST HAVE THREE." G/MASTER. SAM F.S. CHIN SAYS.

IF SO SIMPLE, WHY SO HARD. I SO WANT TO KNOW.

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU AND U.
YSLIM

[yslim]

Hi yslim,
Ok. I will elaborate in another way since you did not find the ''connection''. But I feel I am answering something on Karma(cause and effect) . I will make it simple.

When we used these two type of fajin, we apply 4oz of Jin to emit the partner 1000lb.(self-explanatory)
For ''bow & arrrow' we used Medium Frame.(knees and elbow)
For Dantian fajin we used Small Frame.

The other type is for Large Frame, we used ''whole body Jin'' or the ''Six Harmony Jin'' similar to Chen taichi and other IMA like Bagua Zhang (which I do) and Xingyi. Six Harmony requires more movements involving hands, feet, body.

Seldom it can be fully explained in writing(unless one is very good in written expression). I am sure most of the members are aware but we do our best in forums like this. It is reasonable that some connect and some don't. Which is why I like to read more and learn how to express it better so that more can ''get it''
With more forums and postings, we are getting there.

I have read your other postings here and I believe you are teaching or training similar taichi. Maybe you could tell us how you connect to this particular aphorism for our understanding.

Last but not least, the ''gems'' are for each individual to unearth and to have, therefore no need to steal.

Cheers,
UniTaichi

Hi UniTaichi,

Yes. I’ll be happy to share my Taiji soup“ 4 oz. pluck the 1000lbs.” with you if you have the time

According to the Taijiquan principle is “use yi, no use li”. A very interesting concept and principle and at time drives the beginner fighting up the taiji wall.

This “4 oz. pluck the 1000 lbs”, for years I wondered, Why the 4 oz. and not 2 0r 6 oz.? Then I learned, in the early days the steelyard scale was commonly tool used in the market place in China. Its ‘counterweight’ is a standardized of 4 oz. in weight. They use this to multiply and calculate the sum of the goods’ weight. When the weight of goods are heavier then the ‘counterweight,’ then the goods on the scale pan will pluck the counterweight, and visa versa. This concept of using the weight measurement instead li measurement matching the Taiji principles doesn’t use physical force but use the yi to feeling out the leverage point by using the listening energy. Li is use the measurement of physical force. Pluck is uses the measurement of weight. Like a teeter-totter with the leveraging gravity center point will give a small guy like me.(5’1” and 128lbs) some chance. With a clear understanding on this “4 oz pluck the 1000lbs”. I won’t have any problem to up rooting you no matter of size, if I have an advantage leverage point. But to send you airborne is just a dream. But they say dream do come true. But for now let me enjoy my good health and the New Year.

Lets do a taiji lab test. If you come from my left side and put your right palm onto my deltoid to push me off balance as if you are going to issue a challenge. This pushing creates a ‘contact point’. On each side horizontally (right/west/thumb side and left/east/pinky side on this c/pt), with this c/pt in the middle, This two points will be a potential of yin/yang points and yang yin point. It is depend on the condition. This is true with the vertically (up/north and down/ south) with the c/pts in the middle. I draw a line to circle these 4 points with this c/pt in the middle. I will have a circle with a center. I draw a straight line from right/west point through the middle of c/pt to the left/east point, and I do the same to the vertical line. This will form a cross (+) with this c/pt in the middle. Now I will have a circle with a center, and a center with a cross. I use this Taiji point as neutral/pivotal point to “line-up” from my ”center of mass” to your “center of mass” to lead your movement by measurement of “weighted center” rather than the measurement of li. Only within this point the yin yang can do it’s changing with a change according to the condition of the moment. That is what GM Sam F.S.Chin took us for a spins.

Since I have no hand in my deltoid to capture your landing palm when it contacts. Upon ‘meeting your force’, my listening energy detected your landing force is strongest (yang and heavy) point is on the heel of your palm, (the south/down side). This condition calls for a changing with a change on my neutral point to changing my south/down side point to be ‘yin and light’ for my defend, and simultaneously my north/up side to be ‘yang and heavy’, for my offend by tilting the pivot point that the yin is absorbing to my dan tien and the ‘yang‘ is to project from the ‘life-gate’ to bend your hand backward to a lock, (this tilting is like the teeter totter in vertical plane with my deltoid) through an internal looping motion within my kua’s neutral point. This is call ‘pluck (your) body (to disrupted your center of gravity) to borrow (your unbalanced) weight. With this added on to my ‘weight center’ to help me weighting you down onto your palm that cause it to bending backward into a locking position. Locking your wrist will forcing you to go down on your knees, and you can’t move out of it. This is call “Close”. Close is to capture and gain control of your body ‘center of mass). How ever, I need two “Closes’ to be captive your “weight center” before I want to fajin. Otherwise my fajin will just a fizzle off with you still standing and say to me ‘go ahead and make my day”. My opportunity missed.

What is “close”?
1, when below the ‘horizontal line’ is close (yin). Above the horizontal line is open (yang). Close, apply absorb (yin) to open (yang). Open, apply project (yang) to close (yin).
2, when inside the vertical line are close (yin). Outside of that line are open (yang). When close, you need to open for defend. When open, you want to close for offend. To open, apply expand. To close, apply condense. I think that is what GM Sam F.S. Chin says. Can I do it? Yes. Am I good at it? No. But with this clear picture of knowing the how and that is why I now can do the “4 oz pluck the 1000 lbs” with a process.


I hope this is elaborate enough. This is the process in line what I was hoping for, but not too elusive convoluted that I cannot take it to the Taiji lab to see what make it tick.

Happy New Year and practice for longevity.
yslim

[DPasek]

As a practitioner of both Taijiquan and ILiqChuan (Sam Chin), let me clarify the post by yslim for those that are unfamiliar with the philosophy and concept of ILC.

The image of the “steelyard scale” is used in TJQ literature and has, I believe, been discussed previously on this forum (with links to pictures of the balance type of scale and the steelyard scale for comparison). Yslim gives a good description for how this type of scale relates to the TJQ concepts that he quotes.

But the concepts mentioned in his “Taiji lab test” are actually from ILC (at least I have never encountered them stated this way in TJQ). The “contact point”, “circle with a center”, “circle with a center, and a center with a cross”, “Taiji point as neutral/pivotal point”, “yin is absorbing to my dan tien and the ‘yang‘ is to project from the ‘life-gate’”, ““line-up” from my ”center of mass” to your “center of mass””, “‘meeting your force’”, and even the three planes, and “close” (as used here) all come from ILC:

What is “close”?
1, when below the ‘horizontal line’ is close (yin). Above the horizontal line is open (yang). Close, apply absorb (yin) to open (yang). Open, apply project (yang) to close (yin).
2, when inside the vertical line are close (yin). Outside of that line are open (yang). When close, you need to open for defend. When open, you want to close for offend. To open, apply expand. To close, apply condense. I think that is what GM Sam F.S. Chin says.
yslim

Dan

[yslim]

As a practitioner of both Taijiquan and ILiqChuan (Sam Chin), let me clarify the post by yslim for those that are unfamiliar with the philosophy and concept of ILC.

The image of the “steelyard scale” is used in TJQ literature and has, I believe, been discussed previously on this forum (with links to pictures of the balance type of scale and the steelyard scale for comparison). Yslim gives a good description for how this type of scale relates to the TJQ concepts that he quotes.

But the concepts mentioned in his “Taiji lab test” are actually from ILC (at least I have never encountered them stated this way in TJQ). The “contact point”, “circle with a center”, “circle with a center, and a center with a cross”, “Taiji point as neutral/pivotal point”, “yin is absorbing to my dan tien and the ‘yang‘ is to project from the ‘life-gate’”, ““line-up” from my ”center of mass” to your “center of mass””, “‘meeting your force’”, and even the three planes, and “close” (as used here) all come from ILC:

What is “close”?
1, when below the ‘horizontal line’ is close (yin). Above the horizontal line is open (yang). Close, apply absorb (yin) to open (yang). Open, apply project (yang) to close (yin).
2, when inside the vertical line are close (yin). Outside of that line are open (yang). When close, you need to open for defend. When open, you want to close for offend. To open, apply expand. To close, apply condense. I think that is what GM Sam F.S. Chin says.
yslim

Dan

HI DAN,

(I STILL LIKE THE LARGE PRINT BETTER FOR MY EYE. SO I AM NOT SCREAMING).

I AM SO HAPPY THAT YOU ARE A PRACTITIONER OF BOTH TAIJQUAN AND ILIQCHUAN (SIFU SAM CHIN) IT SOUND LIKE YOU MIGHT BE WITH MR.BEN FROM N.C. SCHOOL. MARTHA AND LIM SEND HIM BEST.

I HAVE BEEN CHASING SIFU SAM CHIN ALL OVER THE MAP TO HIS WORKSHOP IN THE PAST 2 YEARS FOR ONLY HIS "TAI CHI PRINCIPLE TEACHING". HE TALKS NOTHING ELSE BUT THE TAI CHI PRINCIPLES! HIS TEACHING HAVE CONNECTING ALL MY OTHER CHOP SUEY TAI CHI PRINCIPLES I GOT FROM ALL OTHER FOGGY YEARS. HE IS THE BEST AND THE ONLY ONE WE MET CAN TEACHES THE TAI CHI PRINCIPLE SO CLEARLY AS THE WAY HE TEACHES IT. I LIKE TO SHARE IT AND GIVE CREDIT TO WHO THE CREDIT IS DUE.

I ONLY BEEN WITH SIFU CHIN'S I-LIQ-CHUAN PRINCIPLE FOR 2 YEARS, NOT EVEN OFFICIALLY TAUGHT THE 21 FORM AND NOT RANKED. MOST LIKELY YOU HAVE SENIORITY OVER ME. SO PLEASE HELP ME TO EXPLAIN TO THIS TAIJI GROUP WHAT THE I (YI) LIQ (LI) CHUAN/QUAN STAND FOR AND WHAT IS THE WORDS MEAN. TAI CHI QUAN IS A CHUAN BASE ON TAI CHI PRINCIPLE. WITHOUT IT THIS QUAN CAN EASLY BE CALL YI LI/I-LIQ CHUAN OR ? BECAUSE BOTH CHUAN/QUAN HAVE ' I/YI TAO,CHI TAO,LI/LIQ TAO '. SO WHAT HAPPEN WHEN THE I-LIQ CHUAN IS BASE ON THE TAI CHI PRINCIPLES ? WITH THIS SAME TOKEN, WOULDN'T IT EASILY BE CALL TAI CHI CHUAN? YIN YANG CHUAN? WHAT IS THE CONCEPT AND PRINCIPLE DIFFERENT BETWEEN THIS TWO? IF THE I-LIQ-CHUAN IS NOT BASE ON THE SAME TAI CHI PRINCIPLES, THEN WHY SIFU CHIN'S TEACHING MOVEMENT ALWAYS END WITH A TAI CHI PRINCIPLES? SO FAR AS I KNOW IT AT THE MOMENT THERE IS ONLY ONE SET OF TAI CHI PRINCIPLES. IF THIS WHITE CAT AND THAT BLACK CAT WON'T DO/CATCH THE SAME RAT. SHOULDN'T I ' LETS MAKE SOUP OUT OF THIS 2 OLD CATS?'

SINCE YOU ARE PRACTITIONER OF BOTH QUAN/CHUAN . PLEASE, CAN YOU MAKE US FAMILIAR WITH THESE UNFAMILIAR PRINCIPLES OF ILQ CHUAN AND TAIJIQUAN, ON THIS APHORISM "4 OZ.DEFLECT/PLUCK THE 1000 LBS.", BEFORE I MEET UP WITH SIFU CHIN IN ARIZ FOR HIS 7 DAY INTENSIVE TAI CHI PRINCIPLE WORKSHOP IN FEB,2012?

FOREVER THANK YOU,
YSLIM

[Bob Ashmore]

Yslim,
My apologies for not getting back on here since my last posting. I have been unbelievably busy both at work and at home.
And I still am.
I didn't want anyone to think I had forgotten my promise to post about my views on "sung". I will, once I get some free time to do so.
I am not even able to read your very intriguing looking post at this time.
I will, as soon as I can.
If "No vacation ever goes unpunished" isn't a famous saying, it should be.

Bob

[yslim]

Yslim,
My apologies for not getting back on here since my last posting. I have been unbelievably busy both at work and at home.
And I still am.
I didn't want anyone to think I had forgotten my promise to post about my views on "sung". I will, once I get some free time to do so.
I am not even able to read your very intriguing looking post at this time.
I will, as soon as I can.
If "No vacation ever goes unpunished" isn't a famous saying, it should be.

Bob

HI BOB,
APOLOGIES IS NO NEED HERE FOR BEEN UNBELIEVABLY BUSY BOTH AT WORK AND AT HOME. YOU ALL ARE BLISS. ONLY THING I CAN'T WAIT IS MY MONTHLY SOCIAL SECURITY CHECK. SO YOU KEEP ON BUSY WORKING AND DON'T GIVE THE PRESIDENT ANY IDEA ,WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

KUNG HAY GAT CHOY TO ALL THE 100%
YSLIM

[yslim]

SORRY IT WAS A DUPLICATE

[yslim]

As a practitioner of both Taijiquan and ILiqChuan (Sam Chin), let me clarify the post by yslim for those that are unfamiliar with the philosophy and concept of ILC.

The image of the “steelyard scale” is used in TJQ literature and has, I believe, been discussed previously on this forum (with links to pictures of the balance type of scale and the steelyard scale for comparison). Yslim gives a good description for how this type of scale relates to the TJQ concepts that he quotes.

But the concepts mentioned in his “Taiji lab test” are actually from ILC (at least I have never encountered them stated this way in TJQ). The “contact point”, “circle with a center”, “circle with a center, and a center with a cross”, “Taiji point as neutral/pivotal point”, “yin is absorbing to my dan tien and the ‘yang‘ is to project from the ‘life-gate’”, ““line-up” from my ”center of mass” to your “center of mass””, “‘meeting your force’”, and even the three planes, and “close” (as used here) all come from ILC:

What is “close”?
1, when below the ‘horizontal line’ is close (yin). Above the horizontal line is open (yang). Close, apply absorb (yin) to open (yang). Open, apply project (yang) to close (yin).
2, when inside the vertical line are close (yin). Outside of that line are open (yang). When close, you need to open for defend. When open, you want to close for offend. To open, apply expand. To close, apply condense. I think that is what GM Sam F.S. Chin says.
yslim

Dan

HI DAN,
SORRY I DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME THIS MORNING. BUT NOW I HAVE JUST EATEN A TUMMY FULL OF RICE. NOW WITH A BELLY FULL OFCHI. SHALL WE CLEAR THE AIR WHAT IS CONSIDER TAIJI QUAN'S AND YI LI CHUAN'S. I DON'T REALLY KNOW WHY WE NEEDED THIS WHITE CAT AND BLACK CAT THING...BUT AS HUMAN WE LIKE TO KNOW.

But the concepts mentioned in his “Taiji lab test” are actually from ILC (at least I have never encountered them stated this way in TJQ).

The “contact point”,

ALL MARTIAL ART HAVE 'CONTACT POINT' INCLUDE TAIJIQUAN. OUR CURRENT TAIJI TEACHER GM. GEORGE XU KUO MING OF SAN FRANCISCO USE IT. WHEN HE COMES INTO A CONTACT WITH THE OPPONENT. HE TOLD US TO MELT THE EDGE ON THE CONTACT POINT. THERE ARE TIME HE POINT TO THIS POINT AND DECLARED "IM GONE". THAT WAS A BIT OF ABSTRACT FOR US. NEED A LOT OF YI POWER. BUT THE WORDS OF CONTACT POINT WAS USED AND OFTEN BY HIM.

“circle with a center”,

IN TAIJI IS THE CART'S WHEEL. MOVE LIKE A CART'S WHEEL.THE CIRCLE IS THE OUTER RIM OF THE WHEEL AND THE CENTER IS THE INTER POINT CALL THE AXIS WHERE THE SPOKES GOING OUT TO CONTACT THE INSIDE PART OF THE OUTER CIRCLE WHICH CAN BE CALL THE CONTACT POINT.

“circle with a center,

A REPEAT ERR ?

and a center with a cross”,

IN TAIJI THE CROSS IS THE SPOKES THAT SUPPORT THE RIM FROM THE AXIS. FORMING A TWO OPPOSITE POLES BUT NOT OPPOSED EACH OTHER FOR EQUAL DENSITIES

“Taiji point, as neutral/pivotal point”,

IN TAIJI WE WERE TAUGHT IN THE POINT OF CONTACT WE NEED TO "HUA" (NEUTRALIZE). TO HUA ONE MUST UNDERSTAND CLEARLY THE YIN YANG POINTS OTHERWISE WE DON'T KNOW WHEN AND WHERE TO CHANGE AND GOT STUCK. GM XU SAID YIN YANG IS NOTHING BUT CHANGING.

“yin is absorbing to my dan tien and the ‘yang‘ is to project from the ‘life-gate’”,

IN TAIJI YIN IS TO GATHER FROM OUTSIDE TO DAN TIEN AND YANG IS RELEASE THROUGH THE MINGMEN TO OUTSIDE. GM. GEORGE XU OFTEN TELL US THE MAXIMUM POWER. YIN IS SHRINKING TO THE SMALLEST TO DAN TIEN STILL HAVE ROOM TO SHRINK AND YANG IS EXPAND TO THE WHOLE PARK( WE WERE IN THE GOLDEN GATE PARK) AND TO THE UNIVERSE. BUT I THINK I'M GOING TO WAIT A BIT TO THE UNIVERSE.

“line-up” from my ”center of mass” to your “center of mass””,

GM GEORGE XU IN TAIJIQUAN USE THIS ALL THE TIME BUT HIS AIM WAS NOT THE SAME WAY, WHEN HE LOOK AT ME AND POINTING OUT YOU HAVE NO CHI HERE OR THERE. THEN HE WOULD "LINE UP" HIS ATTACK FROM THAT "EMPTY" (WEAK) SPOT AND IT COULD BE MY BACK, THE SIDE, MY RIGHT FOOT OR TOP OF MY HEAD. THAT IS BECAUSE I FORGOT MY 8 GATES PLUS SOME NO-NOS. EVEN THOUGH HE WAS STAND IN FRONT OF ME BUT HE COULD 'LINE ME UP" FROM MY BACK IF THAT WAS EMPTY AND JUST POINT HIS FINGER THERE AND ATTACK FROM THERE TO WHERE EVER HE SEE FIT. IF I TRY TO CHANGE. HE WOULD SAID 'SO WHAT,YOU'RE STILL MINE" (WITHOUT MUCH DETAILS LIKE GM CHIN'S )

“‘meeting your force’”,

IN TAIJIQUAN IS A "BU DIU BU DING. NOT TOO MUCH NOT TOO LITTLE AND REMAIN CONNECTING AS WE MOVE. EQUAL DENSITY WITH WHAT EVER. YOU HARD I'M SOFT CALL IT A WASH

and even the three planes,

IN TAIJIQUAN WE HAVE FRONT-BACK, UP-DOWN (CALL FOLD) RIGHT-LEFT, THE 3D, AND THE INTERNAL-EXTERNAL

and “close” (as used here)

BY ALL MEAN TAIJI HAVE "OPEN' AND 'CLOSE'; OPEN IS RELEASE-GATHER IS CLOSE. SHRINK IS CLOSE-EXPAND IS OPEN. (GM GEORGE XU USE THIS ALL THE TIME, BUT NEVER EXPLAIN IT IN MICRO-DETAILS THE WAY GM. CHIN DID)IN THE VERY HIGH LEVEL SKILL WHEN THE MASTER SAYS TO YOU " STILL DON'T KNOW HOW TO BREATH". AND HE WON'T EXPLAIN IT ANY FURTHER. IT MEANS YOU STILL DON'T KNOW HOW TO CLOSE TO CAPTURE AND RELEASE TO FAJIN. HE WANTS YOU TO FIND IT OUT THE SAME WAY HE DID. SINCE I ONLY DO TAIJIQUAN FOR HEALTH. I WOULD NEVER GET TO THAT HIGH SKILL LEVEL TO LEARN IT FROM THE TAIJI MASTER MYSELF. THIS ONE I MUST HAND IT TO GM SAM CHIN. WITH OUT HIS MICRO-DETAIL OF TAIJI PRINCIPLE TEACHING. I WOULD STILL IN THE FOG FOR HIS "CLOSE" THE WAY HE DO IT. THIS I WILL SAY "all come from ILC:

" ALL AND ALL I LOVE THE MICRO DETAILING THE PROCESS AND PLAIN ENGLISH THE WAY GM SAM CHIN'S PRESENTATION LIKE NO OTHER. THAT IS WHY I USE IT TO PRESENT THEM TO THIS DISCUSSION SO MORE PEOPLE MIGHT FIND IT EASIER TO UNDERSTAND THE TAIJI PRINCIPLE. I USE ALL HIS TAIJI PRINCIPLE TEACHING TO MY CHEN AND YANG FORMS. I NOW CAN UP ROOTING SO MANY BIG GUYS AND KEEP THEM WONDER DURING THE WORKSHOP IN TAIJI AND I LIQ CHUAN , WHICH I CAN'T BEFORE AS THEY OVERPOWERED ME. UNTIL I MEET GM CHIN. TO PRACTICE WITH A GOOD UNDERSTAND OF TAIJI PRINCIPLE BASIC IS A MUST FOR HEALTH.

I DON'T HAVE RANK ON MY TAIJIQUAN AND ILIQCHUAN. ONLY RANK I DO IS ON MY HEALTH, AND I'M RANKED PRETTY HIGH. BECAUSE IN THE VA CLINIC I HAVE A NEW GERIATRICIAN DOCTOR,AND HE SAID TO ME I COULDN'T BE ON HIS PATIENTS LIST BECAUSE OF MY CONDITION OF HEALTH, AND ASKED ME DO I WISH TO HAVE A REGULAR DOCTOR INSTEAD. OF COURSE I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT "GERIATRICIAN" MEAN UNTIL I GOT HOME AND ASKED MY LOVEY. SHE CRACKED UP! I THEN REALIZE 'PROCESS OF AGING' IS A LAUGHING MATTER.

SORRY FOR THE MESSED UP WITH THIS TWO CHUAN'S PRINCIPLE, BUT IT ALL WORK FOR ME JUST THE SAME FOR MY HEALTH.

CIAO,
YSLIM