YCF form differences

Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Thu May 20, 2004 9:25 pm

The chart shows the simplified TJQ developement. It is the most probable theory!
Yang and Chen Style was more similar at the time of Yang Lu Chan that they are today. Not only the Yang Style changed but also the Chen Style! Today we can't find documented "old Chen" and "old Yang" styles, but they was very similar! Some similarities can be found in the Du Yuzhi "old Chen" (the Chen style without the modifications of Chen FaKe), but in the precedent generations the styles were still more similar!
My webpage is in Slovenian (a Slavic languge but not Russian). For now the pages are mainly in Slovenian, but maybe in the future (in the next two years) I will find the time to translate them in English.
I made the degrees of internal and external aspects on the basis:
1. Today Chen is 50% hard, 50% soft
2. Today Yang is 100% soft, 0% hard
3. Shaolin Quan (Pao Chui) is/was 100% hard, 0% soft
4. Wudang (Neijia) Quan is/was 100% soft, 0% hard
and the Chen Chang Xin "Martial Art" was similar to the "Old Chen" and "Old Yang" and seem that they were (I suppose that from the existent descriptions of the old Chen and old Yang and the prior and after of the TJQ developement) 80% soft, 20% hard.
After that the "Chen's" emphasized the "Pao Chui" elements and the "Yang's" emphasized the "Wudang" elements. They becomed what we know today as Yang and Chen Style. Both evolved from the same style but in different ways.
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Postby psalchemist » Thu May 20, 2004 10:16 pm

Greetings Oldyangfamilytaiji,

Thank you for your explanations, I appreciate your response.

You wrote:
<<After that the "Chen's" emphasized the "Pao Chui" elements and the "Yang's" emphasized the "Wudang" elements. They becomed what we know today as Yang and Chen Style. Both evolved from the same style but in different ways.>>

Now, my knowledge is quite limited in this realm so far...but would this deduction imply that...the Chen style advocates the Chen Wang Ting theories (pao chui/cannon fist?), and the Yangs advocate the Zheng SanFeng(Wudang) theories?
Or am I stretching the implications?
Image

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby Audi » Thu May 20, 2004 11:26 pm

Hi all,

Graham,

Thanks for the clip. It has been a while since I have tried to compare a Chen form with a Yang form and was quite surprised at how closely the sequence matched. I seemed to be able to match up the postures pretty closely, except that I could not see the Chen equivalent of Press or Apparent Closure. There were probably extra Chen elements as well, but it has been a long time since I have been exposed to any of that form and can no longer remember the much of the beginning sequence.

One of the big surprises I saw were the correspondence of the second Buddha Pounds Mortar to Cross Hands, which you mentioned, but also the correspondence of the first Buddha Pounds Mortar to Ward Off Left. Somehow I had missed this until now.


Oldyangtaijiquan,

I am curious about certain aspects of your views. First, what do you consider to be the "Pao Chui" elements of Chen Fa Ke’s version of Chen Style, and what do you consider to by the “Wudang” elements in Yang Style?

Do you acknowledge Taiji lineages that do not include Chen Changxing? If so, what is it that defines the principles of Taijiquan differently from those of other arts? Are you relying on the “Classics” to define the art?

I am not sure that I would be comfortable describing the current Yang Style I practice as 50% hard and 50% soft; however, I would also not be comfortable as describing it as 100% soft or with any particular percentage. I do not understand Yang Jun’s teaching quite in this way, but I could well be wrong. What is that you find to be hard in Chen Style, but soft in the “older” versions of Yang Style?

Take care,
Audi
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Postby Michael » Fri May 21, 2004 3:38 am

Graham,

Thanks much for the video. I as others can see much in common there with the Yang style. But some of the forms we do not have I recognize in my Kwang Ping Yang style (Ban Hou style) that I have not seen anywhere else. I have much to condiser.

Thanks again.
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Postby Graham » Fri May 21, 2004 8:10 am

Hi Audi,

Thanks for pointing out the first 'ward off left' he's sneaking into his Buddah pounds Mortar - I hadn't noticed that, but it's clearly there isn't it?

I found it hard to believe that Yang evolved from Chen until I saw this clip - now it seems obvious!
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Fri May 21, 2004 8:30 am

The “Wudang” elements in the Yang Style are the (internal/soft) elements that we can find in the “Classics”. Some say that Chen Changxing told to Yang Lu Chan about his »Wudang« teacher and give him the writings of that (Wudang) art. Some also said that Yang Lu Chan visited the Wudang mountains where he found the art of the Chen Changxing »Wudang« teacher, but that Yang Lu Chan in respect of his teached didn't talk about it outside the family.
The Shaolin (Pao Chui) elements in the Chen are the (external/hard) elements such as winding the wrists and shoulders folding the waist and chest, springing and leaping, and emphasizing Chan Ssu Jin.
Yes there are also lineages that do not include Chen Changxing, but the chart shows only the main today Taijiquan Styles (especialy the Yang Style).
The Old (Frame) Chen style (Yi lu form) was predominantly "soft" (more than 75%) and less »hard« (less than 25%) [the use of Fa Jin]. The movements of the Lao Jia (Old Frame) style are larger than in other styles of Chen Family Taijiquan. They may also be said to be less complex. Chan Si Gong are less externally apparent than in other styles.
The New (Frame) Chen style was created by Chen Fa Ke, based on the movements of the Lao Jia (Old Frame) style. Chen Fa Ke added actions such as winding the wrists and shoulders folding the waist and chest, springing and leaping, and emphasizing Chan Ssu Jin. These changes make Xin Jia appear more dynamic and explosive than Lao Jia. The New Chen is half soft (50%) and half hard (50%). The percentages are only an approximations!
Chen and Yang Style Taijiquan were (more) similar between the 1800-1900 that between the 1900-2000. Something about the Chen Taijiquan evolution (and its percentages) is writen on:
Lao Jia Chenstyle Taijiquan - http://www.chenstyle.com/methods/schools/lao_jia/index.html
Xin Jia Chenstyle Taijiquan - http://www.chenstyle.com/methods/schools/xin_jia/index.html
Also Chen evolved (and changed) from the martial art teached by Chen Changxing, so is not right to say that (what is today) Yang Style evolved from (what is today) Chen Style!
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Postby psalchemist » Fri May 21, 2004 12:07 pm

Greetings All,

In reviewing the Chen style video clip I noted something that caught my attention.

Accented in what seems to be the equivalent of "tso/yo lo tsi au po (brush knee/push)" posture...

I am unable to visually note the threading quality...The nine pearl process..I am wondering if this is a highly refined stage of practice, where threading has become subtle, almost invisible, or internalized?

...Or if this is a specific quality of Chen style Taijiquan?

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby psalchemist » Fri May 21, 2004 12:48 pm

Greetings Oldyangtaijiquan,

Thank you very much for your explanations. This certainly clarifies alot, I appreciate your assistful efforts. Image

Very helpful.

<<The Old (Frame) Chen style (Yi lu form) was predominantly "soft" (more than 75%) and less »hard« (less than 25%) [the use of Fa Jin].>>OYTCC

So, if I have interpreted your explanation correctly...the use of Fajin is an external(hard) practice???
Or is Fajin a hard aspect within the soft art?

<<Chan Si Gong are less externally apparent than in other styles.>>OYTCC

I'm sorry, I am not at all familiar with this expression...
"Chan Si Gong?" less externally apparent?
As in the video?
What is Chan Si Gong?


<<The percentages are only an approximations!>> OYTTC

Yes, thank you, this is what I had assumed. Image

<<Chen and Yang Style Taijiquan were (more) similar between the 1800-1900 that between the 1900-2000. Something about the Chen Taijiquan evolution (and its percentages) is writen on:
Lao Jia Chenstyle Taijiquan - <http://www.chenstyle.com/methods/schools/lao_jia/index.html>
Xin Jia Chenstyle Taijiquan - <http://www.chenstyle.com/methods/schools/xin_jia/index.html> >>OYTCC

Thanks very much for those links, I really appreciate resources into taijiquan history right now.


<<Also Chen evolved (and changed) from the martial art teached by Chen Changxing, so is not right to say that (what is today) Yang Style evolved from (what is today) Chen Style!>>

I am glad you clarified that point, I was unaware of that grown deviation within the styles and their whenabouts.


Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.


[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 05-21-2004).]
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Postby DavidJ » Fri May 21, 2004 8:53 pm

Hi OYT,

You wrote, > The ?Wudang? elements in the Yang Style are the (internal/soft) elements that we can find in the ?Classics?. Some say that Chen Changxing told to Yang Lu Chan about his »Wudang« teacher and give him the writings of that (Wudang) art. Some also said that Yang Lu Chan visited the Wudang mountains where he found the art of the Chen Changxing »Wudang« teacher, but that Yang Lu Chan in respect of his teached didn't talk about it outside the family. <

Reading between the lines of all these claims, it seems to me that what you are saying is that Yang Lu Chan's lineage was added to without his permission.

Regards,

David J
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Postby DavidJ » Fri May 21, 2004 9:38 pm

HI Graham,

You wrote, > Here is a video of Du Yuzhi (Tu Yu-tse), student of Chen Yanxi (the father of Chen Fake) and Chen Minbiao (Small Frame and Hulei Frame Chen style):
http://www.kongfu.org/film/fist/TU_taichi.wmv

> This is the oldest Chen video I've ever seen, and I think the oldest out there.

Most of Tu Yu-tse form in that video is in the form that George Xu does, though there are some differences.

If that is a very old form then what has been passed on was done rather well, and with very few changes.

Regards,

David J
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Postby rvc_ve » Fri May 21, 2004 9:47 pm

Cool link graham.

It looks like the first form from the chen system (jiao lia yi lu), although the execution is more "yanglike" to call it something, and It can certainly resemble some of the older yang style forms I've seen, such as the yang ban hou form.


By looking at this form, is easier to imagine yang luchan practicing somethig like this first and then modifying it because of his own uderstanding, to early yang style, that in turn evolve to moderd day yang taiji.

Its also much easier to imagine this chen form evolving from shaolin pao chui, softened by studies in qiqong and TCM by early practitioners.

This is the origin of the style I like to advocate, stripped away from myths and legendary heroes, and focused only on the common elements that can help us make the shaolin paochui-chen-yang connection.
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Fri May 21, 2004 10:19 pm

I don't have all the answers. I will be interested how the Chen Style looked before the 1850. The (Yang) TJQ origins and developement is not clear. Maybe one day some documents will be revealed that will clarify it. Maybe there are not aviable documents or were all "destroyed" (by the communists) to cover the Wudang TJQ origins.
One question is, where is the "manuscript" that Chen Changxing got to Yang Luchan? Why it dissapeared? Is it lost or is hidden (inside the family)?
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Sat May 22, 2004 10:02 pm

One question to reflect: Why YLC didn't teached the "Pao Chui"? How is posible that, if we know that he learned from his teacher all the "martial art"?
I will give you the answer later in the discussion. The answer clarify a lot of obscurities.
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Postby JerryKarin » Sat May 22, 2004 10:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oldyangtaijiquan:
<B>One question to reflect: Why YLC didn't teached the "Pao Chui"? How is posible that, if we know that he learned from his teacher all the "martial art"?
I will give you the answer later in the discussion. The answer clarify a lot of obscurities.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read the first snippet here: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/rep/archives/snippets.htm
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Postby JerryKarin » Sat May 22, 2004 10:25 pm

The lineage chart you have seems purely speculative to me. There is simply no evidence to prove it. In addition, the notion of percentages of hardness and softness does not have any support that I know of. What does that even mean?

Here is what Yang Chengfu says of this type of thing:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Although there are rather a lot of different styles of Chinese martial arts, they are all alike in that successive generations have striven all their lives and with all their might to explain the principles and theory contained in these techniques, but these efforts have never been totally successful. Nevertheless, if a student will expend the effort of one day of practice, he will receive the achievements of a day of work. Over days and months this accumulates till everything falls into place naturally.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is a very diplomatic and Chinese way of saying what we might pose in modern English as 'all that and 50 cents buys you a cup of coffee.'

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 05-22-2004).]
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