Huan Yuan

Huan Yuan

Postby Isaac888 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:16 pm

Finally it's over.... huan yuan.
The sense of relieve when you have gone through 102 forms and it has come to an end... huan yuan.

What's so important about huan yuan? Is there some application to this 103 and final form?
I recently came across an article on the 3rd set of the 103 form (from the net) starting from Bao Hu Gui Shan to Huan Yuan and in this last form there were two brackets dictating something. 1st bracket was "three elbow storkes" and the other was "11 Break Branches". Couldn't figure what it is all about. In my school of Tai Chi (in which I am a beginer student - 5 years of once a wheek class) I noticed a poster (there were many with Yang Cheng Fu, Yang Bin, Yang Jun, and the rest, with Fu Chong Wen, Ching Man Ching) with an unknown with 9 points shown on his stance. I couldn't figure out what that means also.

Back to Huan Yuan... is it something irrelevent to Tai Chi in terms of combat or is it a time to summerize some chi thingi?

Please help me with this. I have been nominated to be the education member of the school and would like to take this opportunity to learn and pass the learning to my superiors. Like an empty shell without full understanding of the flow of Chi and the inner strength of the exercise.

Just enrolled with the Yang Cheng Fu Centre in USA and had received a card with Yang Lu Chan face on it.

Cheers.

Isaac888 - Malaysia
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby Audi » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:07 pm

Greetings Isaac888,

I am off to push hands class in a moment and so have no time at the moment to answer your post adequately.

What's so important about huan yuan?

According to my understanding, you are supposed to use this posture to adjust the breathing and fully complete the "circle" of activity involved in doing the form; however, I do not think it is more important than any other posture. In fact, in our Sword Form, we have a posture with that same name, but it does not actually involve returning to the original position.

Is there some application to this 103 and final form?

I know of none.

I recently came across an article on the 3rd set of the 103 form (from the net)...

Could you provide a link to the article?

In my school of Tai Chi (in which I am a beginer student - 5 years of once a wheek class) I noticed a poster (there were many with Yang Cheng Fu, Yang Bin, Yang Jun, and the rest, with Fu Chong Wen, Ching Man Ching) with an unknown with 9 points shown on his stance.

I would need to see a photo to comment. I think I have seen similar posters, but the number 9 does not ring any immediate bells for me.

Just enrolled with the Yang Cheng Fu Centre in USA and had received a card with Yang Lu Chan face on it.

Welcome to the Association!

Take care,
Audi
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby Isaac888 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:24 am

9 points.jpg
9 points.jpg (161.12 KiB) Viewed 5862 times


Dear Audi,

I have attached herewith the photo animation of the 9 points that I had mention earlier.
How long does one stand still during the "Huan Yuan" posture and what goes into the mind of the practitioner while he or she is set in this posture. The breathing should be regulated or normal? Does one visualize the complete 102 forms in this posture and cap off with the final before leaving this post? What is the "Yi" in this stance? The intention?
What circle?

Is it a stance that says, phew, what a relieve,or is it something that has a lot of weight in it?
Does it assist to sum up the toil and add zest to the practice.?
Is it something like .... the fat lady had just completed singing.. no "yi" intended here.

Sorry for the mediocre questions.

Regards.

Cheers.

Isaac888
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby Audi » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:18 am

Hi Isaac888,

Thanks for posting the photo. My Chinese is not as good as some of the others that post here from time to time and I can't clearly read all the characters clearly, but here is what I think.

The photo says "Page 85, diagram 5 at the bottom." It appears to be showing the location of the "nine pearl bends" mentioned in one of the Tai Chi classics (Mental Elucidation of the Thirteen Postures?) by using a counting word that can refer to pearls. The word "pearl" does not actually appear on the chart. We have referred to the nine pearl bends a few time before on this forum. The last time I recall can be accessed here.

The photo shows nine "beads," numbered from bottom to top, from "first" to "ninth. It refers to: ankle, knee, kua, waist/lower back, center, Jin source, shoulder, elbow, and wrist. According to my understanding "Jin source" would refer to the spine between the shoulder blades.

As for "Huan Yuan," I would have different advice for beginners and intermediate students. For beginners, I would say that the only requirement we have is to pause to calm the breath. What I actually do is a little more complicated. During the form, I feel a strong alternation of Yin and Yang, empty and full, open and close, storing and releasing, etc. Much of this tends to correspond to inhalations and exhalation, although I do not force it. When I reach the Closing Posture (Shou Shi 收式), I feel a strong closing that usually corresponds to an exhale; however, in Huan Yuan, there is no opening and no variation of full and empty or of storing and releasing. I feel I have to tamp down the cycle as I inhale and prepare to enter a calmer state with less variation. I also feel that my breathing must by calmed and no longer correspond to large body movements. I don't know if this is correct, but that is what I do. Either way, I think it should take only a second or two.

Take care,
Audi
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby Isaac888 » Thu May 03, 2012 2:46 pm

What goes into the mind of a person who is meditating? Sex, religion, politics? Or simply SRP.
Well, I believe, huancayo yuen is more than just a number as in 103
. I believe it is the universal accumulation of the past performance. I believe it is more than just a closing. I believe it has some applications.
However , I may believe in anything I want, but the sad story is.... It s just a closing.it's when the fat day sings.
Unless someone reveal the true meaning of this one hundred and three stance. When we say, chi tze, is there an application to this form ? Yes, there is.
When we say chuo peng.. Is tare an eapplication, ..... Well yes, there is.
However , when we say Huan Yuan .. It has no meaning. I bet Cheng Fu will roll in his grave, if we say that it has ni meaning.

Cheers .... Take care,.

Isaac
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby Bob Ashmore » Fri May 04, 2012 3:39 pm

I am absolutely NOT a Chinese speaker. I have said, many times, on this forum that I have a hard enough time speaking or writing in English correctly. Doing so in Chinese, for me, is nothing more than a pipe dream.
However, Google has a wonderful app for translation.
This is what it tells me are translations for: 还原
Dictionary

noun
reduction
reducing
deoxidization
deoxidation
revivification
decrease
decline
lowering
lessening

verb
revert
reduce
deoxygenize
restitute
deoxygenate

adjective
diminishing

As far as "applications" for it go, I would have to say, "Of course it has applicatons".
Have someone grab both of your wrists while you're at the end of the Closing posture, then do the form.
You'll get at least one answer, pretty quickly.
I also believe it is more than just it's number, or even it's name. To me it is a unique, distinct "application" form, just as much so as all the rest of the named forms and their transitions.

"What goes into the mind of a person who is meditating?", you ask.
To each their own, would be my answer.
Everyone's mind is unique, so each person will have a different experience.
Beyond that, each person will have a different experience each time they meditate.
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby dragon x » Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:05 pm

8)

This is an interesting question, one i used to ask myself until i found the answer in one of my books.
which one, i do not recall at the moment. However the breathing/calming aspect is a new to me and sumthin
i shall explore when i go training this afternoon. all i knew was that 1) i am to exhale, 2)it has an application but i don't know what

As for meditation each session is different according to what the meditators goal is.
i have meditated on different things including the ones you mentioned in the original question.
my favorite and the one i practise most often is to just quiet my mind and try to reach a place where i think
of very little or nothing at all. this is extremely difficult but not impossible. like being in a state of WUJI

i will try to obtain google translator as it might be helpful in my research of things both Tao and TaijiQuan 8) :idea:
and Thanx for the nine pearls image it is a great help to me and i'm sure others as well

Heping /Peace
....The Millstone moves but the mind does not .....
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby Isaac888 » Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:04 am

In my earlier post, I'd put forth a question. Whats so important about Huan Yuan?
I thank all those who had replied or contributed to this topic of "Huan Yuan".

Imagine a world will lesser protocols, lesser bureaucratic formalities, forgoing the unwanted and only keeping those that really would assist or make sense. With this in mind, I ask again, what's the point of the 103rd form - Huan Yuan.
In the 49 form, "Huan Yuan" was tucked aside and made to call only after executing "Shou Si", thus, we have the 49 form and not a 50 form tai chi style.
If, we do this for the 103 and follow the example of the 49 form, we have 102... and 102 is so much better than 103.

To shorten the total 103 form, can we have 18, 19 and 20 with just "Dao Nian Hou" , somewhat like the "Yu Nu Chuan Shou", forgo the "Huan Yuan" , shorten 65,66 and 67 with just "Yun Shou" just like the 49 form. And many more.

Really confusing. Need help here. No offense meant, just pondering.

Cheers

Isaac
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby Bob Ashmore » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:37 pm

Isaac,
Funny you should ask this question again. It was well timed.
Recently, while I was searching for something completely different, I found an article that mentioned "Huan Yuan Li".
At the time I could not recall why that was something I was interested in, but I glanced through article and then bookmarked it as I was sure it was something I was looking for though I could not recall why.
Today I noticed your new post on here and remembered why.
The article is located here:
http://tukylam.freeoda.com/hunyuanli.html
There are many interesting articles on this Tu-ky Lam website. I am going to take the time soon to read them all.
I hope these articles, which are all inter related, will be some help to you in your search for this aspect.
I am not ready at this time to make any comments on this, having only skimmed the article at the time since I could not recall why I had such interest in the content.
Let's all read the article, and the related articles, and then we can have a more knowledgeable discussion together.
I am not saying this article is any way "definitive" but I have found Tu-ky Lam to be quite helpful to me in the past when I was searching for knowledge so I am sure we will all learn something useful.

Bob
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby Isaac888 » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:32 am

Dear Bob,

Thank you so much for that Tu Key link. Really appreciate it. Please do share your findings when you have gone through them.
I think this Huan Yuan Li is not the same as the Huan Yuan subject in the 103 rd form. Imagine applying "mo - jing" as you
Are in the Huan Yuan position and swaying to feel the jing with head moving up.
This is one article that helps me in understanding the "way of forces" in push hands. I have been searching high and low for an article like this. I will try to have an in depth search and research on this subject.
I have always wanted to be able to move my opponent with just a touch of my finger tip an of course to heal an injured person or provide temporary relieve to their pain.

Cheers.

Isaac
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby Audi » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:14 am

Hi all,

Bob, I think that Hun Yuan Li is a part of Yiquan, and not a recognized part of the theory of Yang Style Taijiquan. I do, however, see the two words/characters in a reference to Feng Zhiqian's version of Chen Style.

I am not sure of the literal meaning of hun yuan li (混元力?), but I think it is like "natural primal force." Huan yuan (还原), the topic of this thread, means "return to the original (position)."

From what I read, Yiquan seems to have theories and practices that are different from Tai Chi's, even though there are similarities and overlaps. In my view, the type of Tai Chi we study has roots in many places and not just in the cultivation of "internal energy." The recipe for Tai Chi similar to ours typically incorporates aspects of Yin-Yang theory, the Yi Jing, Daoist and Neo-Confucian Philosophy, Five Elements, traditional Chinese medicine, Sunzi, the Tai Chi Classics, general Chinese martial arts, and specifics handed down through the various families.

Isaac,

To shorten the total 103 form, can we have 18, 19 and 20 with just "Dao Nian Hou" , somewhat like the "Yu Nu Chuan Shou", forgo the "Huan Yuan" , shorten 65,66 and 67 with just "Yun Shou" just like the 49 form. And many more.

Really confusing. Need help here. No offense meant, just pondering.

I think the names and numbers of the postures in our tradition have no deep significance. The exact same form can be counted as 13, 37, 85, 103, 108 or even more postures. I think that even our form has traditionally been performed with varying numbers of certain repeated forms (e.g., Cloud Hands, Repulse Monkey, Parting Wild Horses Mane), according to your desire.

Also, I would say that "having no particular application" is not at all the same as "having no meaning."

Take care,
Audi
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby Isaac888 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:58 am

Dear Audi,

In the beginning there were 300 over movements. Then there was 108. Now 103.
Are they the same... all condense to this date.
Just a thought, can we further condense it for ease of training? (names and numbers)
As one gets older, the random access memory gets smaller and the Read Only Memory depletes.
Shou Hui Pi Pa
Lou Xi Ao Bu x 3
Shou Hui Pi Pa
Lou Xi Ao Bu x 1


Chuan Shen You Deng Jiao
Lou Xi Ao Bu x 2

remove- Huan Yuan (no significant value) - I might be wrong here.

How many have we?

Cheers
Isaac888
 
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:08 pm

I have read the article more closely and I tend to agree with Audi somewhat.
This is a different meaning. At least...
Partly.
I see some similarities between the two. Well, "feel" would be a better way to express it.
Reading the "Huan Yuan Li" article of Tu-ky Lam gave me an "Aha moment" as I clearly have felt all of these sensations while doing Post Standing (Zhan Zhuang).
I naturally tend to rock back and forth from my root as he describes while performing this exercise.
My training has been to "sink and be still" but my reality has not matched that.
I can stand perfectly still, for as long as I like, but it has never felt "correct" to me.
My Post Standing, Standing Meditation, Zhan Zhuang, potato\potatoe, has always felt best to me, and made more sense to my way of feeling things, as TKL describes in his article.
I have long done what I have called "rocking on my root", for lack of a better term, as I do my Standing. It gives me a feeling of whole body integration and energy movement (circulation) unlike what I feel when I'm simply standing stock still.
It starts out slow, almost imperceptible, then builds to a pretty strong crescendo as my energy seemingly moves itself back and forth, up and down, without my doing anything consciously.
No matter how many times I've heard to stand stock still and relax without doing anything, I have to force myself to do so.
And I have. I've trained myself to believe that my rocking was somehow wrong and have reached a point where I can use my mind to stop the rocking and movement.
Since I was taught to "not do anything but sink, relax and do nothing" I trained myself to the point of being able to do just that for long periods of time.
Which seemed beneficial in some ways. It sure taught me to empty my mind, for one.
But inevitably, just as soon as I would lose my conscious self in the meditation, my body would begin this "rocking on my root" all by itself.
It always feels "right" to me.
I have long divided my Post Standing into two categories because of this:
Standing perfectly still and sinking time
Rocking on my root time
Since I cannot make my body not want to rock, I allow it. It just seemed right to me not to fight a battle that I continuously lose and to allow myself equal time to the practice that my body seems to enjoy, or maybe need.
So reading TKL's article about this method to reach "Mo-jing" gave me a great deal of pleasure.
It seems I am not alone in rocking on my root during Zhan Zhuang.
Perhaps both methods are necessary, as I learn a great deal from both.
But it sure feels good to me to know that I'm not alone.

As for "differences/similarities" of this.
I see the Huan Yuan of the Yang form as a closing, or dissolving, of the energy of Tai Chi Chuan. I've long considered that energy to be a "whole body energy", so to my mind it seems that we are describing the "return to normal", or coming out of using the whole body energy and going back to a more "normal" energy usage.
In the respect that "Huan Yuan Li" is also whole body force as TKL describes, I can see a distinct similarity in between these two concepts.
The differences seem to me to be in the way of looking at it rather than in how it is used.
Huan Yuan's meaning of "dissolving" or "closing" says to me, "stop using whole body energy now" while "huan yuan li" seems more of a definition of using whole body energy.
I may be WAY off on this, and probably am, but right now it seems to me that we're talking two sides of the same coin.
One is the act of stopping this energy, the other is actually doing it.

As for "Hun Yuan Tai Chi", that seems to be a whole different kettle of fish.
This page: http://www.taichiacademy.com.au/magazine/feature26.htm shows that "Hun" means mixed, while "Yuan" means circle.
So this is "Mixed Circle Tai Chi".
While I like the name it seems to me to describe every type of Tai Chi Chuan out there.
All kinds of circles, all mixed together, to achieve Tai Chi.
So while the name seems poetic to me, and certainly very descriptive, it doesn't seem to have the same meaning as "Huan Yuan".
But...
Again I am most definitely NOT a scholar of the Chinese language and may have this all completely wrong.
I'm certainly open to other interpretations.
I've said my bit, so I will now sit back and wait for others to tell me why I am completely wrong.
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:19 pm

Well now, another take on the words "Hun Yuan" come from this page and seem to contradict the other:
http://stltaiji.com/documents/articlefinland.pdf

On this page the definition of Hun Yuan is entirely different, I will paste it here:
The words "Hun Yuan" refer to the "original" state of the universe. It can be likened to the
"0" that comes before the number "1," or the great void or “cosmic soup” that existed before the
beginning of creation. It is like the "Tao that cannot be named," referred to in the first chapter of
the Tao Te Ching. Some might refer to it as Primordial Essence. It pre-exists even the state of
Taiji where from the void, “Wuji,” appeared a state which contained both the Yin and Yang and
2
is symbolized in the Taiji diagram. It also refers to the circular/spiral movement of the universe,
which should be incorporated into Hun Yuan Taijiquan and Qigong practice.

Now, again I am struck by the difference in the spellings:
Hun Yuan
Huan Yuan
I am used to these minor spelling differences in translations by now, what I am not used to is the entirely different set of translations provided for the exact same words.
However, if I look past the first translation I found "Mixed Circles" for Hun Yuan, and go with this new translation, then these concepts are identical to how I have always viewed "Huan Yuan" as I outlined it above.

Very interesting.
And now, I will go back to sitting and waiting for those who know a TON more about this stuff than I do to tell me which is which and what is what.
Because it's obviously confusing the heck out of me!
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Re: Huan Yuan

Postby UniTaichi » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:50 am

Audi wrote:Hi all,

Bob, I think that Hun Yuan Li is a part of Yiquan, and not a recognized part of the theory of Yang Style Taijiquan. I do, however, see the two words/characters in a reference to Feng Zhiqian's version of Chen Style.

I am not sure of the literal meaning of hun yuan li (混元力?), but I think it is like "natural primal force." Huan yuan (还原), the topic of this thread, means "return to the original (position)."

Take care,
Audi


Hi,

What Audi have written above is correct. we have to look at the Chinese character before translation.

Hi Isaac,

Huan Yuan is very important if the form ends with it. It might not have an application but the meaning is deep. to further expound on the meaning, it is to '' return Qi to the original source to be stored in the Lower Dantien '' When we are borned, the pre-natal qi is stored at the Lower Dantien and therefore any qi that we get from our practice have to be returned and stored. In most Taoist qigong, they have it, Huan Yuan, as their closing posture and it is imperative that it is perform. If one do not do it, whatever kung fu or qi that you have practiced were be lost. The most practice Huan Yuan method is to put your right palm over your left for male (female left over right) on your Lower Dantien for a brief moment. That will end your practice. There are quite a few methods so do whatever is taught by your school.

Hi Bob,

First of all continuing on the Chinese translation, your ''mixed circle'' is not correct for ''Hun Yuan'' As a separate word by word it is correct but put together is it another meaning as Audi had provided.

Second, the ZZ movement in Yiquan is not or rather is a conscious movement (initailly and become second nature movement at a more advance stage) with visualisation and intention. TKY only descrbed what the physical movement but he did not said How it is done or learned.

There is nothing wrong with rocking in your ZZ. I would said that you have already activated your ''small micro-cosmic orbit'' from what you have described and the qi is running along your Du and Ren channel. Like your have already know, you can stop the movement with your mind intention or make it go faster (not for Small/Big mirco-cosmic orbit, just for info. ''Go faster'' are for those doing ''zhi fa gong'' eg. Hua Tuo Five Animal Folic Spontaneous(Zhi Fa) qigong and with a teacher in attendent)

IMO, the Hun Yuan of Yiquan and Feng ZhiQiang is different. Yiquan is a higher level of the Bow and Arrow fajin method of taichi. Having said that, in taichi there are also masters who has similar skill set. Eg. my present taichi CMC teacher uses the ground energy as well as ''whole body'' to fajin. My bagua teacher using ''six harmony body'' fajin . All three different training methods. Feng ZQ, recently departed, is using dantien energy, which I have described in my other earlier posting. In a more physical form, it is also known as ''Dou jin'' or Shaking jin. This is my understanding at this stage. LOL.

Cheers,
UniTaichi
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