a question about "Use Yi, do not use Li, 用意不用力"

[meghdad]

Dear Friends and Masters,
First I would like to thank you all in advance for taking your time to read this post and for your guidance. I was translating "Yang Family Ten Essentials" and faced some issues about which I'm going to seek advice.

6- Use Yi, do not use Li （用意不用力）
There is a sentence in G.M Yang Chengfu's explanation which is:

" 如浑身僵劲满经络，氣血停滯 ... "
ru hun shen jiang jin man jing luo, qi xue tingzhi ...

The translation of the first part is somehow difficult. I read the translations of Masters (1-Yang Jwing Ming, 2-Louis Swaim and 3-Paul Brennan) and mention them here for the purpose of clarification:

No. 1: " If there is a stiff Jin (applied on) entire Jing and Luo (system), qi and blood will be stopped or stagnant ...
No. 2: " If the whole body is stiff, the jin fills the meridians, the qi and blodd become stagnant ..."
No. 3: "If the whole body is stiff, the channels have been filled in, the energy and blood become stagnant ..."

Now as it is clear in the above sentences,

in No. 1 "Jiang Jin" is considered separately and translated as "stiff jin" and therefore in translating "man Jing-Luo" mentions "(applied on) entire Jing and Luo (system)". Does not speak of the Jing-Luo being filled.

In No. 2, "Jiang Jin" also considered separately, however it takes Jiang with the first part and translates it as "stiff" and takes Jin with the rest and translates "Jin fills the meridians".

In No. 3, however, "Jiang Jin" is considered together and translated "stiff", then takes "man Jing-Luo" together and translates " the channels have been filled in".


I would like to hear your comments about how my friends here translate this sentence.

- whether we should translate "Jiang Jin" together as "stiff", or

- separate and consider "Jin" filling the meridians, (if so how is it possible that jin can fill meridians, where Jing-Luo is the passage for qi. does it mean that Jin inhibits the movement of qi in Jing-Luo? and if the body is stiff how Jin can be there when normally they say in stiff situation it is Li and jin is present when body is relaxed and so on), or

- if we consider the third translation what is it that fills the channels?


In the end I would like to emphasize that I respect all these three gentlemen and masters and have great respect for their work. I know that this is one of the inherent characteristics of Chinese language that creates such nuances. So I only mentioned names once in order to respect them and not use their work without mentioning its origin.

Meghdad

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings Meghdad,

This is a great question, and interests me. It's now been many years since I translated the Ten Essentials, and looking at this passage today, it appears that I may not have considered reading 僵劲 jiāngjìn as a compound, itself meaning "stiff," or perhaps "stiffness." As much as I tend to be biased in favor of my own translations, in this case I think Mr. Brennan's may be slightly better, while I find Yang Jwing-Ming's to be a bit problematic just in how it comes across in English. As you observe, though, with Brennan's it's not clear what it is that's filling the "channels."

So now, taking into account jiāngjìn as a compound, I might translate this as, "If the stiffness of the entire body fills the meridians, the qi and blood will be obstructed."

This reading takes "stiffness" to be the subject of the first clause. To me, this gives the meaning that not only is the body stiff, but the stiffness has reached even to the jīngluò channels, filling them up so as to obstruct them.

As you say, these nuances are sometimes difficult to interpret, but you've definitely given me cause to reconsider.

Take care,
Louis

[meghdad]

Dear Louis,
This is what one would expect from a Taiji master and researcher, to be receptive and open.
佩服，佩服！

"If the stiffness of the entire body fills the meridians, the qi and blood will be obstructed."

This reading takes "stiffness" to be the subject of the first clause. To me, this gives the meaning that not only is the body stiff, but the stiffness has reached even to the jīngluò channels, filling them up so as to obstruct them.

Thanks for your guidance. This is reasonable specially with the added elaboration you mentioned,
and conforms with the Jing-Luo and qi theory, as far as I understand. As it explains it is not stiffness
that fills the Jing-Luo, rather it is the cause for blockage and stagnation happening in Jing-Luo following
the stiffness of the body, whether the whole body stiffness or local stiffness.

Thanks,
Meghdad

[UniTaichi]

Hi Meghdad,

A very interesting topic. Just some of my view on the 3 translation.

Dear Friends and Masters,
First I would like to thank you all in advance for taking your time to read this post and for your guidance. I was translating "Yang Family Ten Essentials" and faced some issues about which I'm going to seek advice.

6- Use Yi, do not use Li （用意不用力）
There is a sentence in G.M Yang Chengfu's explanation which is:

" 如浑身僵劲满经络，氣血停滯 ... "
ru hun shen jiang jin man jing luo, qi xue tingzhi ...

The translation of the first part is somehow difficult. I read the translations of Masters (1-Yang Jwing Ming, 2-Louis Swaim and 3-Paul Brennan) and mention them here for the purpose of clarification:

No. 1: " If there is a stiff Jin (applied on) entire Jing and Luo (system), qi and blood will be stopped or stagnant ...
No. 2: " If the whole body is stiff, the jin fills the meridians, the qi and blodd become stagnant ..."
No. 3: "If the whole body is stiff, the channels have been filled in, the energy and blood become stagnant ..."

Now as it is clear in the above sentences,

in No. 1 "Jiang Jin" is considered separately and translated as "stiff jin" and therefore in translating "man Jing-Luo" mentions "(applied on) entire Jing and Luo (system)". Does not speak of the Jing-Luo being filled.

In No. 2, "Jiang Jin" also considered separately, however it takes Jiang with the first part and translates it as "stiff" and takes Jin with the rest and translates "Jin fills the meridians".

In No. 3, however, "Jiang Jin" is considered together and translated "stiff", then takes "man Jing-Luo" together and translates " the channels have been filled in".


I would like to hear your comments about how my friends here translate this sentence.

- whether we should translate "Jiang Jin" together as "stiff", or

- separate and consider "Jin" filling the meridians, (if so how is it possible that jin can fill meridians, where Jing-Luo is the passage for qi. does it mean that Jin inhibits the movement of qi in Jing-Luo? and if the body is stiff how Jin can be there when normally they say in stiff situation it is Li and jin is present when body is relaxed and so on), or

- if we consider the third translation what is it that fills the channels?


In the end I would like to emphasize that I respect all these three gentlemen and masters and have great respect for their work. I know that this is one of the inherent characteristics of Chinese language that creates such nuances. So I only mentioned names once in order to respect them and not use their work without mentioning its origin.

Meghdad

No.1.and No.3.
In both translation, ''man'' is better if taken as ''applied'' rather than filled. It is not the jing=luo that is being filled with ''stiff jin/energy'' Example, the jing-luo is liken a garden watering hose and the water flowing inside is the qi/blood, and stiff jin is applied when we step on the hose, the water(blood and qi) were be blocked. When we lift our foot, the qi/jin(water) become like a ''roaring river flowing continuously it reaches every where unrestricted, overcoming all solid defences'' The jing-luo is always being filled with qi and blood.
No.2.
This translation, the ''jiang jin'' is separated, which should not be the case. I see ''jiang jin'' as ''li'' . That is, if we use force or muscular strength, our qi will be blocked.

Quote//-separate and consider "Jin" filling the meridians, (if so how is it possible that jin can fill meridians, where Jing-Luo is the passage for qi. does it mean that Jin inhibits the movement of qi in Jing-Luo? and if the body is stiff how Jin can be there when normally they say in stiff situation it is Li and jin is present when body is relaxed and so on), or //

I read on a YCF website, that said and I am very much in agreement that '' jin is the combat manifestation of qi'' They are one and the same, only in different state. If we ''fa qi'' I classify it under medical qigong. For ''fajin'' is under IMA and the highest level is ''fa shen'' as in ''jing(essence), qi(jin), shen(yi)'' And when you can ''fa shen'' then is it the ultimate level of 用意不用力"
As for the Li/stiff and Jin/relaxed, I already explained earlier. Hope that clear up your questions.

Cheers,
UniTaichi

[meghdad]

Dear UniTaichi,
First of all I'm glad to know you and thanks a lot for your explanation and comments.
I liked your Jing-Luo/Water Hose analogy very much and I think it is an illuminating one.
As I understood what Louis said in his comments here is very much the same as what you
conveyed by this example. I agree with this concept.

As for the translation of man (满), however, I think a little bit different. When translating
something there are some limitations on how much we can alter the original meaning of
a sentence (regardless of whether it makes complete sense or not), based on our interpretation.
I should add that there are some people who think otherwise so this is not absolute. But
personally I think we should consider some limits because if the original writer wanted
he/she could use different wording to convey his/her meaning.

As far as I know Chinese (which is very limited), "man" cannot mean "apply". In Paul Brennan's
website the word "Chongman 充满" is used which clearly means "to fill, to brim".
(http://brennantranslation.wordpress.com ... -quan-shu/)
When I first saw Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's translation of "man" as "apply", I searched dictionaries to
find this but I could not. I still think maybe it is me who can not find it and it is quite likely, because
he speaks Chinese and also he is skillful translator of Taiji and Qigong documents and above all a
Taiji Master. Otherwise, Dr. Yang's intention, I think, has been to alter the translation a little bit
so that it makes sense and would not cause confusion.

Regarding the Jin/Qi relationship, I use the analogy (originally used by Master Mantak Chia), that
Jin is like a stretched rubber, a state of potential energy which is instantly converted to force when
is in action (being released). When we practice Taiji we use our whole body tendons' (and ligaments)
inherent capacity in combination with smooth Qi flow (along with a whole body alignment) to create
this state of "stretched rubber". We continuously do this during our practice. When practicing Fa-Jin
movements we release the rubber and Jin is manifested. This is according to my limited experience
and understanding.

Besides the above analogy, there is another very beautiful one which we can find here:
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/about/a ... /fang-song

This is an excerpt from Grand Master Yang ZhenDuo's book translated by Mr. Karin. It uses the analogy
of Iron (Li) and Steel (Jin). It is quite illuminating as well.



Thanks,
Meghdad

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings Meghdad,

I agree with your thoughts and analysis regarding 滿 mǎn. I would find it hard to translate that as “applied on,” but I think Yang Jwing-ming must have been trying for a functionally accurate translation. What is being described would in more modern terms be expressed as a stiffness that “impinges” or “constricts” the meridians. Remember that earlier in the paragraph an analogy is made to the meridians being like the “watercourses” 溝洫 gōu xù of the earth—things like canals, irrigation ditches, or culverts. The imagery of a blocked irrigation ditch is one that has been filled in with debris or sediment. So the imagery of “filling” was likely carried over in the explanation of the effect on the body’s meridians. The important message, in any case, is that there is a causal relationship between the stiffness of the body and the restricted flow of blood and qi.

Take care,
Louis

[meghdad]

Dear Louis,
Thanks for your elaboration.

I think Yang Jwing-ming must have been trying for a functionally accurate translation.

I agree and I think he has been successful in so doing.

Remember that earlier in the paragraph an analogy is made to the meridians being like the “watercourses” 溝洫 gōu xù of the earth—things like canals, irrigation ditches, or culverts. The imagery of a blocked irrigation ditch is one that has been filled in with debris or sediment. So the imagery of “filling” was likely carried over in the explanation of the effect on the body’s meridians.

This seems quite reasonable and explains the rather odd choice (in my opinion) of 滿 mǎn. It is more clear now.

What is being described would in more modern terms be expressed as a stiffness that “impinges” or “constricts” the meridians.

The important message, in any case, is that there is a causal relationship between the stiffness of the body and the restricted flow of blood and qi.

I totally agree. Thanks Louis for your insights.

祝你愉快，
Meghdad

[UniTaichi]

Greetings Meghdad,

I agree with your thoughts and analysis regarding 滿 mǎn. I would find it hard to translate that as “applied on,” but I think Yang Jwing-ming must have been trying for a functionally accurate translation. What is being described would in more modern terms be expressed as a stiffness that “impinges” or “constricts” the meridians. Remember that earlier in the paragraph an analogy is made to the meridians being like the “watercourses” 溝洫 gōu xù of the earth—things like canals, irrigation ditches, or culverts. The imagery of a blocked irrigation ditch is one that has been filled in with debris or sediment. So the imagery of “filling” was likely carried over in the explanation of the effect on the body’s meridians. The important message, in any case, is that there is a causal relationship between the stiffness of the body and the restricted flow of blood and qi.

Take care,
Louis

Hi All,

I was going to reply something similar but Louis has posted and it is a much better job than I could. I was also looking at ''restraint'' ''restrict'', which Dr.Yang JM translate to the actual function of the sentence rather than the word. Another point to take note is, so far the available dictionary are translating meaning that are commonly used and not those that are used very rarely in cultural understanding. For a Chinese, I can in most cases tell the subtle differents, just like when two words are separate or used as one to describe something eg. ''jiang jin''.

Sometimes, a word like ''man'' is just a linking word and should not be too focus on just one word. I can understand that for translator it is very important to be accurate and used the best word to describe it closest. For training wise, the sentence imply that we should use Yi and not Li(jiang jin). And it is best if you are teaching or your teacher can showed what is using Yi compared with Li to the studends. In one of my various groups, we use ''qi shi'' as part of the ''gong'' training. Get someone to hold both hand while in a forward stance in front of you. You should be at the ccommencement position with both leg shoulder width, hands by your side ready to ''lift hand'' . If you can left both hands (without using Li- muscular strength) while the other is holding it down, then you have successfully learned how to 用意不用力 ( this is 1st level). Wang PeiSheng described it as Taiji Jin.

Cheers,
UniTaichi

[Audi]

Hi all,

" 如浑身僵劲满经络，氣血停滯 ... "
ru hun shen jiang jin man jing luo, qi xue tingzhi ...

I think that the third option is best. I might translate this as: "If there is stiff Jin in the whole body, thus filling in the meridians, the Qi and blood stagnate."
From what I understand, Chinese is a topic-prominent language and not a subject-prominent one like English. That means that all verbs/ predicates refer to topics, but are not "governed" by subjects. That means that 满 (man) does not need a subject and does not have one in this case. The topic it comments on is the situation described by the two previous clauses. In other words, I do not think the Chinese actually says or needs to say what exactly fills in the meridians.

Take care,
Audi

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings Audi,

I can’t say that I agree with you that this is an example of a topic type of construction, nor do I agree that in Chinese “all verbs/predicates refer to topics.” Some do. Both Mandarin and Classical Chinese use sentence constructions that can be analyzed as subject-predicate relations. The sentence we’re discussing expresses a conditional, if / then construction. In any case, we all seem to be in agreement about the general meaning of the statement.

Just for reference and comparison, Wile has: “If stiffness blocks the meridians, the ch’i and blood will be obstructed.” (T’ai-chi Touchstones, p. 12) T.T. Liang has: “If the sinews and vessels are filled with clumsy energy, the ch’i flow and blood circulation will be impeded.” (T’ai Chi Ch’uan for Health and Self-Defense, p. 63) and the English version of Yang Zhenduo’s book has: “But if the jingluo is filled with stiff strength, the vital energy will not be able to circulate. . .” (Yang Style Taijiquan, p. 14)

Take care,
Louis

[Audi]

Hi Louis,

I can’t say that I agree with you that this is an example of a topic type of construction, nor do I agree that in Chinese “all verbs/predicates refer to topics.” Some do. Both Mandarin and Classical Chinese use sentence constructions that can be analyzed as subject-predicate relations. The sentence we’re discussing expresses a conditional, if / then construction. In any case, we all seem to be in agreement about the general meaning of the statement.

Not everyone agrees on basic linguistic theories, let alone how Chinese operates, but I find it more helpful to follow Li and Thompson in considering Chinese a topic-prominent language. Such an analysis requires that we separate the concepts of topic and comment; subject and predicate; and agent, patient, and predicate logic.

For me the term "subject" makes sense only for languages that have some way of indicating governance between a subject and a verb. The traditional concept of "predicate" is the same. As far as I am aware, neither Classical Chinese nor Modern Chinese has any way of unambiguously indicating a subject, but do have ways of indicating topics and sometimes objects. Classical Chinese has a semi-mandatory object pronoun, but neither Classical Chinese nor Modern Chinese has a morpheme to indicate a subject. Chinese does not reliably indicate definiteness, since this would largely duplicate what a primary topic-comment structure communicates.

Consider the following sentences, where the Chinese topics are easy to identify, but the Chinese subjects are problematical. The English has the opposite problem.

我们到的时候下着毛毛丝雨 When we arrived, it was drizzling.
昨天来了两个客人 Two guests came yesterday.
鱼吃了 The fish was eaten (or the fish ate it.)

Let's take the beginning of the Taiji Treatise, which I will try to translate in accordance with the topics. I cannot, of course, teach you anything about translation, but I want to illustrate my understanding of the grammar.

太極者。無極而生。動靜之機。陰陽之母也。動之則分。靜之則合。無過不及。隨曲就伸。人剛我柔謂之走。我順人背謂之粘。動急則急應。動緩則緩隨。雖變化萬端。而理唯一貫。由著熟而漸悟懂勁。由懂勁而階及神明。然非用力之久。不能豁然貫通焉。
The Supreme Limit is born of the Limitless. It is the crux/trigger of movement and stillness and the mother of Yin and Yang. When it moves them, they separate. When it stills them, they combine. It is without excess or insufficiency, bending to comply and then extending. When the other is hard, I am soft, and it is called "yielding." When I go along, he goes against, and it is called "sticking." If he moves rapidly, I respond rapidly. If he moves slowly, I respond slowly. Although the variations are numerous, the principle is consistent. One moves from familiarity with the techniques, to gradually coming to understand interpreting energy, from interpreting energy to the level of mental clarity. Thus, without putting forth effort for a long time, you cannot suddenly see everything about it in a clear light.

The Chinese indicates an explicit topic with 者; two explicit object pronouns with the second, third, fourth, and fifth occurrences of 之, and a prepositional object with 焉. If I translate, focusing on subjects, I would have problems identifying the subject of 動之 (moves them), 靜之 (stills them), and 不能 (cannot), since many words occur before them, and might misidentify the subject of 無過不及 or of 隨曲就伸 as I hunted around for a likely subject. I think the connection between the 由...而 clauses and the following 然 is not as clear as when you take the former as setting up a topic to be resumed by 然 and commented on at the end of the quote. I think it is also harder to find a reference for 然.

While I find it hard to nit the paragraph into a whole using the subjects, I can do so using the main topics. I see the first main topic as 太極 (the Supreme Limit/Taiji), the second as the clauses describing the exchange between the other and me, and the third as 理 (principle), with the progression of study as a subtopic within the third. Taiji provides the cosmic rule that I follow as an individual. I apply this principle throughout, even though it will take a specific progression of study for me to see all this clearly.

As for the original question, when we speak in technical terms, I am not sure whether "Stiff Jin filling the meridians" means that Stiff Jin is the material that fills the meridians or whether it is the agent that causes something else to fill the meridians. The English is ambiguous; however, I think the former is more implied.

I have been taught about Qi filling the meridians and sinking to the Dantian, but am not sure it is appropriate to talk of Jin in these terms. What I understand is that it is Qi in all cases; however, sometimes it is just local Qi and other times it is whole-body Qi. When we use local Qi, we squeeze the muscles and constrict the channels to push the local Qi out, like suddenly narrowing the walls of a canal, suddenly filling it in to displace the water, or suddenly sweeping the water through. This will produce a local surge of Qi, but will have a start and stop and a limited flow. When we use whole-body Qi, we make sure the Dantian remains full of Qi and "relax" to keep the channels open. This is like making sure the main reservoir of water is full so that all the channels and tributaries will remain full and flowing. Using this method, there is no start and stop to the flow of water and the full power of all the water is available.

I hope my logic is clear, even if you see things differently.

Take care,
Audi

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings Audi,

I certainly appreciate and admire the rigors of your observations. I’ve often relied on the Li-Thompson book. I follow your point, but I’m not convinced that it necessarily applies to the original issue—that is, should we understand 僵勁 as a compound—as meghdad astutely pointed out—or as two words, “stiff,” and “jin,” or as an adjective-noun phrase, “stiff jin.” I find meghdad’s observation that it’s a compound, itself meaning “stiff” or “stiffness,” to be the most compelling.

The other issue has to do with how to understand the meaning of 滿 as “filled” or “filling.” Here again, I think it’s helpful to read our sentence in the larger context of the entire Yang Chengfu passage on 用意不用力, which prescribes loosening the body to avoid blockages of various description. Yang uses an illustrative analogy of the earth’s “watercourses,” which, when unblocked allow the water to flow freely. The use of 滿 in our sentence appears to me to be a continuation of the “watercourses” analogy. It we were only to look at our sentence in isolation, 滿 presents some difficulty in that it implies something is “filling” the meridians. I don’t think that’s the meaning here, but the speaker has set up the imagery of the earth’s watercourses, so has chosen a word consistent with that image. Given the context of the whole presentation, however, it is clear that the stiffness of the body is the cause of the blockage of the meridians. Again, technically this body stiffness may be more properly understood as “impinging” or “constricting” the 經絡—not “filling” them. So this, perhaps, illustrates another salient characteristic of Chinese language, that it is often context-oriented rather than sentence-oriented.

So, my revised rendering of the sentence would be, "If the stiffness of the entire body fills the meridians, the qi and blood will be obstructed." But I would be inclined to gloss “fills” as “impinges.” Again, I think that’s what must have been driving Yang Jwing-Ming’s rendering of 滿 as “applied on,” and may explain why he put that phrase in parentheses.

Take care,
Louis

[meghdad]

Dear Audi,
Thanks for your careful analysis and explanation.

Dear Louis,
Thanks for your explanations and your detailed interpretation. Sorry if I caused some
discussions over your wonderful and scholarly work. My intention was just to be more
clear about this phrase since I was translating the Ten Essentials and I intended to be
as precise as ever because of the importance of 10 essentials in Taijiquan practice.
That's why I studied all the present English translations and compared it with the
Chinese text. You can see the result of this translation in our (me and my friend and
Taiji brother, Morteza) website here:

http://www.taijiquan.ir/index.php/world ... 2-17-18-05

So I hope you would forgive me.

Best Regards,
Meghdad

[Louis Swaim]

Greetings Meghdad,

Ah, so you've translated the Ten Essentials into Persian? Fascinating! Are there many taijiquan enthusiasts in Iran?

As for the discussion, I always welcome it. Discussion can only advance understanding.

Take care,
Louis

[meghdad]

Dear Louis,
I did translate the Ten Essentials into Persian and finished it about two months ago.
Regarding Taijiquan in Iran, I should say it has many enthusiasts and they are increasing
as Taijiquan is getting more and more known to the public. Martial Arts have a rather
long history in Iran and is quite popular. Meditative traditions have also a long history here.


The majority of Taijiquan practitioners practice the Standard style of International Wushu Federation
(24 form, 32 form, 42 form, and so on). As for the traditional styles, Chen Taijiquan is also
known and a minority practice it. When me and my friend started to practice Yang Family Style
there were no one else practicing it as far as we know. Therefore we had a hard time practicing
by our own through books and DVDs, specially Master Yang Jun's instructional DVDs and also
Association Journals and other Taijiquan, Qigong and Chinese Medicine books and videos.

We did so for 5 years. In Association's China event in 2012 I could not participate but my friend
and Taiji brother, Morteza, came to China and participated in the event and got good results
(won medals in hand form, Sword and Saber as well). It was encouraging for us after all. This was a
considerable step forward for us mainly because we made many good friends and that we could
get first hand instructions from Yang Family and all the Masters and Taiji enthusiasts there.
Now we continue to practice what was instructed, at least we try our best We also launched a
website to promote Yang Family Taijiquan and apart from Ten Essentials I have also translated
the following:

A Discussion of Taijiquan Practice, by Master Yang Cheng Fu:
http://www.taijiquan.ir/index.php/discu ... n-practice

Association's "Ranking Theory Tests Study Material":
http://www.taijiquan.ir/index.php/world

A Study of Wuji, by Master Sun Lutang:
http://www.taijiquan.ir/index.php/study-of-wuji

Building Strong Foundation, by Master Yang Zhen Duo and Master Yang Jun:
http://www.taijiquan.ir/index.php/build ... foundation

Translation of the name of the movements of 103 form, 49 form:
http://www.taijiquan.ir/index.php/world ... 2-16-49-12

History of Yang Family Members:
http://www.taijiquan.ir/index.php/2013-01-23-14-55-54

Taijiquan: Explanation of the Name and Definition, by Master Zheng Manqing:
http://www.taijiquan.ir/index.php/expla ... definition

and some other articles which I will add as we go on. Sorry if I made it so long and thanks
for listening.

Best Regards,
Meghdad