Bending of the head forward

Postby Yury Snisarenko » Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:39 pm

Hi Jamie,

Thank you for the clip. I am very impressed! He does all those pushes so easily! You mentioned shot power; I've been seeking it for a quite long time but unfortunately haven't reached it yet. I still have problems with pushing big motionless guys standing and enjoying their natural rootedness.:-) I saw that jin clearly in the clip. One of the features of such a jin is that you may stand with almost straight legs when applying it. It's quite amazing!


[This message has been edited by Yury Snisarenko (edited 10-10-2004).]
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Postby Jamie » Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:09 pm

Hi Yury,


Big guys(I'm one)don't really have better root. In fact they are at a disadvantage because their center is usually higher relative to their partner. This makes them easier to uproot. My teacher is small and weighs 110 lbs, I'm 6'2'' and 225 lbs. This makes no difference for him to toss me around with soft power. His listening energy is greater than mine so he easily finds my hard point and breaks my root.

I think tha's one of the keys to being able to stand fairly naturally and use jin - destroying the other's root before the push so that "4 oz move 1000 lbs". If you try to push someone while their root is still entact it is much more difficult. Glad you enjoyed the clips. Master Lin is 85 and reently had some surgery prior to the newest clip. I have lots of private footage (I'm a disciple of this lineage) of his fa jing - it is not rehearsed. You should see the expressions on the guys getting pushed to know what I mean. Ha Ha. Best way to learn!


Take care
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Postby Michael » Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:02 pm

"Truly, the practice of T'ai Chi sets demands on the position of the head and Neck. During the process of performing, your head and neck should always be kept in a straight state, but without any tension and stiffness. The movement of the head and neck must be in unison with the turning of thetorso and thechange of the body's direction and position.

What is even more important is that the neck muscles must remain relaxed, and the head not to be allowed to bend forward or lean backward, or tilt to the left or right."

Zhang Fuxing from "How to Understand and Apply the 10 Essentials"

If the chin is "up", you will have tension.
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Postby Kalamondin » Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:21 pm

Yuri, I too like the Yang emphasis on not showing everything you are capable of (this may be a general principle throughout tai chi or martial arts--I don't know that it's specific to Yang style).

Jamie, thanks for sharing those clips. Really powerful to watch and his movements seem so effortless--all the more impressive with his high stance.

Michael, thanks for the quote about the head and spine. I was reading recently that if the head is out of alignment with the body it is hard to integrate body with mind because the energy channels narrow so much. The neck is a kind of bottleneck, and if it's not aligned, things get clogged.

Kal
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Postby Michael » Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:24 am

Kal.

I agree, but that "bottle neck" can occur nearly anywhere. Neck/shoulders is the most common. For me it is the muscles in the mid/lower back. I cannot lean the torso forward at all when doing a set. If I do, my back becomes a rock, a very painful one at that. It does not invlove the pelvis/hips. I have been very careful in investigating this and stillhave not come up with the cause--nor has my various physical taherpists. We all know the muscles affected, but not the cause.

Oh the corrections I have received for not leaning forward in push etc. I just have learned to make it work in other ways and make different adjustments in terms of usage distances etc.

Jamie,

You can learn a lot being launched through the air, or at least certainly tell you that there is much to learn.
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Postby Yury Snisarenko » Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:23 am

Hi Michael,

Interesting, I've not heard before about back muscles problem in that area during the form performance. I believed that the cause of most problems in the mid/lower back concerns to the mid/lower vertebras. Anyway IMHO when dai mai (belt channel) opens even slightly a relief comes.

Take care,

Yuri
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Postby Michael » Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:42 pm

Yuri,

I do have a disk problem way down, but it is really not the problem, as I have a pretty good control of my structure. I did have a few processes broken off when young in the middle back. These have long since dissolved but due to the physical change in structure, muscle and nerves I expect are "laying" differently than what would be natural. This could be a factor, one I had not thought of before today.

I know that this disk problem is part of the reason I maintain a more "upright" stance than some in the YCF lineage. This "problem can affect the muscles attaching to the upper rear pelvis, but has had no affect on the upper mid back...or rather, "rarely" see below.

I have a student who has found the same area in his back. I slowed his set down more so he could pay better attention to structure, spine, hips and hip joints. He as quite surpised by the change this made in his problem. He saw that his hip joints were tightening up, affecting his hips, his lower, and middle spine. I keep looking for this "flaw" in my own practice. But whenit occurs I look immediately to areas, and have found only rarely that this type of tension was present.

But hey, we are all different, and the "form" has to adjust to us to a large degree.


[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 10-15-2004).]
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Postby Anderzander » Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:51 pm

Hi

I'd add to the above that suspending the head top is as important as sinking. Suspending the crown enables the sinking of the body to create space that lets force pass through. If the body were to sink without the crown being suspended it would cause compression instead of emptiness.

The sinking creates heaviness – suspending the crown creates lightness. I constantly adjust the balance depending on the situation. However too much lightness and the body floats / too much sinking and the body becomes ‘earthbound’.

My own thoughts on the Yang style not showing Fa-Jing is that it is a result of development of technique and not to conceal things.

It was raised in Taiji touchstones (Douglas Wile) and Taijiquan classics: an annotated translation (Barbara Davis) that the role of martial arts role in society had (to some extent) become obviated with the introduction of foreign powers and gun’s etc. I believe in the books they talk about an increased interest in personal development through martial arts at this time as opposed to mainly martial.

Historically then it would seem unnecessary at the time that the Yang’s changed the form to do so in order to conceal something.

I don’t draw my conclusion though from the historical – I think that perhaps the technique of the Yang’s evolved and the form was altered to reflect this. I see this paralleled in an individual’s development through the art.

The ability and nature of ‘fa-jing’ changes and develops as learning increases. It seems to reach a point where non of the body’s own force is involved in throwing the other person – it’s all done through relaxation and emptiness.

I think the Yang form reflects this.



[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 10-15-2004).]
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Postby Yury Snisarenko » Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:41 am

Greetings All,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Michael:
<B>
But hey, we are all different, and the "form" has to adjust to us to a large degree.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michael,

I see your approach and agree that adaptability of taijiquan to everyone's unique condition is one of the most wonderful things about it. This aspect was always a subject of my interest. Thank you for sharing your experience.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anderzander:
<B>I'd add to the above that suspending the head top is as important as sinking. Suspending the crown enables the sinking of the body to create space that lets force pass through. If the body were to sink without the crown being suspended it would cause compression instead of emptiness.

The sinking creates heaviness – suspending the crown creates lightness. I constantly adjust the balance depending on the situation. However too much lightness and the body floats / too much sinking and the body becomes ‘earthbound’.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I agree that this is a very important factor. If person's attention is only at the head, he will have no root. If his attention is only on the feet, his footwork will be clumsy and heavy. Adjusting of the both aspects allows to make a connection in the middle section.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anderzander:
<B>
My own thoughts on the Yang style not showing Fa-Jing is that it is a result of development of technique and not to conceal things.
I don’t draw my conclusion though from the historical – I think that perhaps the technique of the Yang’s evolved and the form was altered to reflect this. I see this paralleled in an individual’s development through the art.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Developing of technique – yes – but which conceals things inside.

I like what you say about personal development but frankly, I don't believe in reaching "non-fighting state" without a stage of "educational fighting" prior to it. And therefore we need some really effective techniques/skills.

Take care,

Yuri
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Postby psalchemist » Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:17 am

<<I'd add to the above that suspending the head top is as important as sinking. Suspending the crown enables the sinking of the body to create space that lets force pass through. If the body were to sink without the crown being suspended it would cause compression instead of emptiness.

The sinking creates heaviness – suspending the crown creates lightness. I constantly adjust the balance depending on the situation. However too much lightness and the body floats / too much sinking and the body becomes ‘earthbound’.>>Anderzander

That is an excellent point you mentioned.

The vertical balance?~centering?~is one I will dedicate more effort into acheiving constantly and consistently.

Focusing on both aspects simultaneously...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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