Small frame/fast form

Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:44 am

Small Frame is a mode of doing Taijiquan (form) and is not a different form. My opinion is that the form in the "small frame" is done in a more "energetic" level, with small and fast movements.
Yang Shao Hou "Small frame" and Yang Cheng Fu "fast form" are their advanced way to do Taijiquan (form). It is the (as I call usage Method or Application Frame). You can't learn that form, you must develop it with hard practice!
So, if you search for it, forget it. Practice you YCF (slow) form and after a long time (maybe 20 years) you will do Taijiquan in a "small frame" with fast/exergetic movements.
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Postby Bamenwubu » Fri Oct 15, 2004 1:28 pm

Ah. OYT, you stole my thunder.
I was wondering what the debate was about. Large frame, small frame, medium frame, fast speed, slow speed, normal speed: no difference except your skill and intent.
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Postby tai1chi » Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:19 pm

Hi OYT,

you wrote:

"the form in the "small frame" is done in a more "energetic" level, with small and fast movements."

I'm not sure of what you mean. What is the "energetic" level? and why would it be associated with "small and fast" movements? I.e., why would the "large, slow" form be any less energetic?

regards,
Steve James
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Postby Bamenwubu » Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:34 pm

I believe what OYT was trying to say is that you express fajin more openly in the small frame form he observed, and some small frame fast forms, so I've heard, of the Yang Sau Chung lineage still express the leaps and stamping that were later removed from the larger, slower, more standardized forms. I could be wrong, but that's what I took him to mean.
Other than that, I don't know that there is any difference in the "energy" level of the forms.
But then again, I've never practiced a small, fast form. I am no expert on this or anything else. I was only trying to make the point that all of these forms follow the exact same principles, so there is really no difference, only window dressing, between them, so to carry on about the "differnces" between these things is pretty silly.
What is different? The skill of the one doing the form, his intent for his movements. Generally it requires a tad more practice to make the postures "small" and still maintain the principles. Also a tad more skill to speed them up and still maintain the principles.
Anyone learning large frame slow forms will, with enough hard work and study, be able to make them smaller and faster. It is inevitable and will happen naturally.
Or so I've been told by those who should know.
I'm not one to remember exact page numbers and quotations, but every book I've read by the Yang family or thier disciples says this pretty clearly.
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:35 pm

Bamenwubu - why you asked if you already know the answer?
tai1chi - Bamenwubu already answered.
The large/slow frame is not less energetic but is designed for the beginners (in my opinion up to 15-20 yearsof practice). Afrer long time of practice (in my opinion more than 20 years) you can do the form very fast without using the external strength (only internal energy). If you try to do Taijiquan in a small/fast frame too early, you will use the external strength (and will obstruct the use of internal energy).
Give the time to the time. All will come at the right time. Continue to practice, there are no secrets/shortcuts ;-)
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Postby Bamenwubu » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:12 pm

OYT,
Did you notice how I asked the question?
My goal was not to just blurt out the answer, but rather to make people research and see for themselves.
They had the first three corners, they needed to seek the fourth one on their own. You can tell people over and over about something, but until they believe it your words are wasted.
Some on here obviously were not thinking this through. Someone even was incivil enough to suggest that the Grand Master, one of the most prominent and sought after teachers of Yang family Taijiquan in the world, wasn't in possession of a complete transmission.
How do you explain something to someone like that? The only way I know is to let them research on thier own and find the answers.
You, obviously, knew the answer to the question. I was aiming for those who did not.
I don't completely agree with your sweeping twenty year timetable to small frame from large, because that kind of thing will depend on the students diligence and natural abilities, but other than that you seem to have grasped the concept very well.
There are also some schools of Taji that teach only small frame, so to assume small frame is dead or dying, or impossible to achieve, or secret, or better, or whatever assumption is being made, is sort of silly.
But, there is a lot of silliness involved in anything.
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:08 pm

Bamenwubu - the English is not my best :-( However I agree with you.
I also think that there are two (main) small frames:
- Yang Ban Hou's version - the form with "small" movements that was developed in the Wu style
- Yang Shao Hou's version - the advanced/fast form
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Postby tai1chi » Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:29 pm

Hi OYT,

sorry, my understanding, when you wrote:

"the form in the "small frame" is done in a more "energetic" level, with small and fast movements."

I misunderstood how you were using the term "energetic". It seems more in line with the conventional (i.e., non-tcc) usage of the term.

As I would then understand it, the large frame could be done as energetically (i.e., with fajin, as Bamenwubu suggested). Other practitioners use "energetic" in a differnt sense.

When you write:

"The large/slow frame is not less energetic but is designed for the beginners (in my opinion up to 15-20 yearsof practice)."

It makes sense, and it's pretty well known that most of the jumps and kicks and "energetic" (if that's the right sense) parts were removed from the form.

(Yes, many schools still retain forms with these features. However, consider the Chen styles where there are kicks from handstands, etc. It could be argued, then, for ex., that Pao Chui is more energetic.

Yet, I don't think students are expected to wait for 10-20 years. This brings up what may be the fundamental distinctions between the Chen and Yang lineages. At least, it might be considered a point where they diverge in terms of their training, if not the desired end result --which is more important, imv.

In brief, I understand (hopefully) the idea that a more vigourous, physically demanding form is more energetic. And, that the large, slow form is less vigourous than others. I am not convinced that the small, fast forms require or cultivate the type of "energy" that people like YCF called chin or jin.

Btw, I don't claim to be able to define "jin." I'm only saying that the distinction is made between it and other types of energy.

I do agree that, after long practice of the long, slow form, one is able to express that "energy" is a small, fast way or any way one desires. It might even be acceptable to say that the small, fast forms are more oriented toward the application of whatever energy is developed.

"All will come at the right time. Continue to practice, there are no secrets/shortcuts ;-)"

Oh, it's too late for me now. But, if I could master myself enough to be ok in the slow long form, I'd be happier than learning another form, anyway.

regards,
Steve James
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:07 pm

My opinion is that the large/slow frame is a way to practice Taijiquan and the small/fast frame is a way to use Taijiquan.
Many of us are searching for the "secret" forms, but the truth that there is no a shortcut to become a master. The knowledge of a master is a "secret" for a beginner. To master the "secret" we must practice and the "imagination will become reality" ;-)
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Postby Anderzander » Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:46 am

Some nice things said here Image

I wrote in another thread that my own thoughts on the Yang forms not showing Fa-Jing, is that it is a result of development of technique and not to conceal things.

It was raised in Taiji touchstones (Douglas Wile) and Taijiquan classics: an annotated translation (Barbara Davis) that the role of martial arts role in society had (to some extent) become obviated with the introduction of foreign powers and gun’s etc. I believe in the books they talk about an increased interest in personal development through martial arts at this time as opposed to mainly martial.

Historically then it would seem unnecessary at the time that the Yang’s changed the form to do so in order to conceal something martial.

I don’t draw my conclusion though from the historical – I think that perhaps the technique of the Yang’s evolved and the form was altered to reflect this. I see this paralleled in an individual’s development through the art.

The ability and nature of ‘fa-jing’ changes and develops as learning increases.

It seems to finally reach a point where non of the body’s own force is involved in throwing the other person – it’s all done through relaxation and emptiness.

I think the Yang form reflects this.
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:01 pm

Some try to emulate Fa-jin, but they use only external force Image
You can't learn Fa-jin (and others martial powers), but you must develope it/them! Image
Learning the fast (secret) forms is not the answer. The "fast" form is the result, not the path. Image
When you use Taijiquan, you do fast (explosive) movements, this is different from the practice (slow and even movements). In my opinion to use Taijiquan one must practice 10 years or more. For the developement of internal energy/power you must practice, practice, practice,.. Image
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Postby Anderzander » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oldyangtaijiquan:
When you use Taijiquan, you do fast (explosive) movements, this is different from the practice (slow and even movements).</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

just to clarify my post - I see a point where the movement is not explosive, even in use. It can of course be fast.

I agree with everything else by the way Image

[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 10-18-2004).]
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Postby chris » Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:32 pm

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">In my opinion to use Taijiquan one must practice 10 years or more.</font>


Those who have languished for 9 years, and still find themselves unable to apply their learning, should find a better teacher immediately!
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:38 pm

Yes, you learn to apply the movements of the postures for self-defense. You can (and must) learn the martial applications at the same time sa you learn the postures.
But this don't mean that you will beat an external marial artist (i.e. a MauThai boxer) in a few years! Internal MA schools demant more time to reach the maximun than external MA schols. With karate you can use it in more or less 6 months and a karateka with 6 months of practice will beat a Taijiquan practicioner with 1 year of practice!
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Postby Richard Dunn » Tue Oct 19, 2004 1:04 pm

Hi
Go to and join http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/energeticsart/ to get clips of small and middle from Tian.

Also for articles and history and other information go to http://www.art-of-energetics.com

Richard



[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 10-19-2004).]
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