Small frame/fast form

Postby Bamenwubu » Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:26 pm

Someone who has practiced karate for 6 months can defeat someone who has practiced TJQ for 6 months????
Maybe. But only maybe.
I've know people who have practiced karate for 6 years who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag if you made it wet, gave them illustrated instructions, good lighting, infinite time, let them use both hands and then gave them a sharp knife for extra measure.
By the same token I've know TJQ students who could apply some pretty advanced techniques after six months of diligent practice with a good instructor.
It has as much to do with natural ability as time served. Some people just "get it" very quickly, others do not.
I didn't, I have barely started to, but that doesn't mean everyone won't.
Sweeping generalities about anything are probably not a great idea. I would imagine that most people who study any style of martial art take more than six months to apply them in good order.
If defeating an enemy is your goal, buy a gun it's much faster to learn. If learning to be in control of your body and your mind is important to you, then practice TJQ, though it takes longer the results will be better in the end.
However, telling people that they will not learn to defend themselves well with TJQ may not be a good idea. First, it's not true. Second, it may discourage some who are seeking a good path.
You will learn to defend yourself, it will take longer than other ways but once you get there you will be better prepared.
Learning TJQ is a long, slow process that requires dedication. If you are dedicated then there will be no opponent you cannot defeat.
The funny thing is, victory and defeat get redefined along the way. You will see them differently when you're done then when you started.
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Postby oldyangtaijiquan » Tue Oct 19, 2004 8:00 pm

The developement of the external strength is faster than the developement of the internal strength, so is normal that in the first few years the external martial artist will defeat the internal one. But is also true that the internal strength has a higer potential than the external strength, so after few years when the external martial artist will reach the apex, the internal martial artists will continue to progress and will overtake the strenght of the external martial artist. That's it.
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Postby 13postures » Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:30 am

Hi all,

Been reading this topic with interest. From my own research and practice, the fast small frame is an advanced training set meant to put the skills and principles learnt in the slow set into practice at speed. The fajin in the small set is usually short jin, its definitely more mobile and the agility training in the slow set really comes to the fore (ie no double weighting, proper structure, tensionless movement, etc). The fajin is not done in the external form but stresses not retaining any of the jin within the body after emission, it should be transmitted completely into the opponent's body. Its generation is also more through energy and not hard muscular contraction.

The original form of YLC was derived from CCX's form and though I do not claim to know for certain exactly what his form was, I have seen a variety from different lineages from him and the older set still bears similarities with the Chen form. For a look from a published source, Xu Yu Sheng's book (the first on the art) does record a version of it, Xu was a disciple of YJH and had learnt it prior to the art being taught publically. It does bear resemblance to the form handed down from Quan You who had studied under YLC at the imperial palace.

At a later stage, his sons, YBH and YJH changed their forms to become quite similar to the large frame though the fajin was still retained. This would be then the later Yang form prior to YCF's final standardised form.

Interestingly, the form of Quan You was termed the Yang small frame. From WJQ's early transmission, we know it had leaps and both fast and slow movements and other lineages from Quan You also have these characteristics.

The training has always been from slow to fast and not the other way around. Though the fast frame might be viewed as being more applicable martial-wise. The slow form is the main, the fast form an advanced practice that does not replace the main.

We are referring now in this topic is actually the fast frame (quai jia) which is usually smaller in motion externally though not necessarily internally.

YCF had his TC Long Boxing which has come down to us. YSH had his slow form and his fast form, though there are disputes as the exact form of his fast/small set. Regardless of the set practiced though, the basic principles of the art are not compromised.

Just my 2 cents.
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