How do I fight with internal arts?

How do I fight with internal arts?

Postby artofwar » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:41 am

Hi,
I found this on blogger. It seems to be a student of Peter Ralston inquiring about how to fight with internal arts. What do you think? How come there aren't internal artists in the UFC or MMA scene?

Regards

[url]
http://chenghsinart.blogspot.com/2013/0 ... s-how.html[/url]
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Re: How do I fight with internal arts?

Postby Sugelanren » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:50 pm

Hi bud.

If i was to answer your question "How do I fight with internal arts?" Id have to say "I fight only when i have to, and with intent".

Tai chi isn't a sport, it's a martial art. If there were walls in an MMA ring, the fighting style would change. If there were bystanders, or knifes, or muggers involved then the style would differ further. If there were guns involved? UFC is a sport, and the fighters are talented. I am a Tai chi player and you'd never see me in a UFC ring, why would i ever want to go in one? That's the question.

Apparently this guy fights in MMA and does Tai Chi - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy3-P142cqM

And this Guy teaches MMA style combat and does Tai Chi - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCkPwe3kLCw


edit. I should point out that i am only talking for myself. This post in no way tries to represent the Tai chi Community's views on this.
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Re: How do I fight with internal arts?

Postby Bob Ashmore » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:04 pm

I will also be speaking only for myself on this topic.
The original question to Peter Ralston wasn't from one of his "students", in that the person asking had never trained directly with him but had learned some of his methods from a book.
Peter Ralston answers him very well, I feel. He didn't discourage him, instead he gave him a useful exercise to use to begin to understand the concepts of TCC combat princples, "do not meet force with force, do not go against".
It's a good lesson to learn, it should keep the gentleman occupied for quite some time and it won't hurt anyone no matter how clumsy they are when they start out with it.

As to why there are not TCC fighters in hard style sport/exhibition matches...
Why would there be?
I don't know about you, but for my way of thinking there are way too many "rules" in that kind of sport fighting that make our kind of fighting next to impossible to pull off "in the ring".
Since it's a young mans game I'm never going to participate anyway but even if were 30 years younger and knew then what I know now...
I'd still not have done so.
I don't see any point to it. Not for me.
Sure, it looks like it could be fun if you're into that kind of thing.
I have never been.
Others will answer differently, but again I'm speaking strictly for myself.
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Re: How do I fight with internal arts?

Postby Audi » Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:11 pm

Greetings all,

Martial arts include skills relating to self defense, fighting, and sport; however, each of these has different goals and different constraints. Even within these areas, there are different focuses that are still easily visible in the differing development of many arts. Take, for example, the differing characteristics of Bagua, Xingyi, Chen Style Tai Chi, Yang Style Tai Chi, or Wu/Hao Style Tai Chi, each of which clearly reflects the circumstances around its origins. Who is your likely opponent? What will you and he be wearing? What do you want to do to him or her? Where will you face him or her?

If you prepare for everything, you will not be particularly good at anything. MMA is a sport that is well adapted to some martial arts, but not to others, even many external martial arts. Almost all the top MMA fighters come out of only half a dozen martial arts/sports or just generically train in the pool of techniques from those arts. In my view, this reflects poorly on neither MMA nor on those other arts. It would be like asking why Karate fighters and their techniques are not better represented among professional boxers. They are simply different things.

As for how to fight with internal arts, I would say that each traditional system has its own curriculum. Follow through diligently until the end and you will have your answer. In our case, I would summarize our path by saying:

1. Do form and drills to learn to manage your own energy.
2. Do fixed-step push hands to begin to learn to stick and manage the joint energy of you and your opponent.
3. Do moving-step push hands to learn how to move while establishing and managing your joint energy.

If you do all these things, you will learn how to control your opponent's energy. If you can do so, what can your opponent do to you? What can you not do to your opponent?

There is a great deal of content along this path, and different people focus on different aspects. Some styles or teachers promote shorter paths or shortcuts, but I do not have know of any that fit our system. We use form to arrive at no-form. We focus on thought, so that we do not need to think later. The range of techniques and how they combine is limitless. "Become familiar with the movements, then come to understand the energy in them, then you will have marvelous insight to do what you want."

There is no way to describe such a thing in a few words, but let me quote Sunzi, as one of my Tai Chi teachers often has. What applies to a clash of armies is what is to apply between you and your opponent.

Scheme so as to discover his plans and the likelihood of their success. Rouse him, and learn the principle of his activity or inactivity. Force him to reveal himself, so as to find out his vulnerable spots. Carefully compare the opposing army with your own, so that you may know where strength is superabundant and where it is deficient. In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them; conceal your dispositions, and you will be safe from the prying of the subtlest spies, from the machinations of the wisest brains. How victory may be produced for them out of the enemy's own tactics - that is what the multitude cannot comprehend. All men can see the tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved. Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.

Military tactics are like unto water; for water in its natural course runs away from high places and hastens downwards. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak. Water shapes its course according to the nature of the ground over which it flows; the soldier works out his victory in relation to the foe whom he is facing. Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions. He who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent and thereby succeed in winning, may be called a heaven-born captain. The five elements (water, fire, wood, metal, earth) are not always equally predominant; the four seasons make way for each other in turn. There are short days and long; the moon has its periods of waning and waxing.


Take care,
Audi
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Re: How do I fight with internal arts?

Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:59 pm

Once again Audi was able to more clearly convey what I was thinking than I was.
Kudos! Awesome post.

Bob
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Re: How do I fight with internal arts?

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:15 pm

Internal art is a very serious art. It is nothing to be engaged in a combat with anyone without hesitation. One who practice such art can cause serious bodily harm to someone. That's why the practitioner always try to avoid any unnecessary encounter. It was only used for protection and self defense with mental control.

The art requires self discipline and self control with a pledge not to hurt anyone before it was taught. It was a bad start or start with the wrong foot if one's intention is to learn the art with malice. This philosophy may be known as 武德,the virtue of martial arts.
Last edited by ChiDragon on Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do I fight with internal arts?

Postby windwalker » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:09 pm

I would think the first thing would be to understand what is meant by internal, and make sure one met that criteria first.
Many seem to try to do things outside their scope with out really achieving what is meant by which ever internal style they practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ttVm3Gig1E

a good basic concept relating to combat but only learned though IMA basic practices.
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Re: How do I fight with internal arts?

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:29 am

Internal in "internal arts" means the inner body which include all the body parts. The art is to fine tune the internal organs to the tip-top shape, so the body can generate the inner energy continuously without being fatigue quickly.

Here is a good demo for an internal artist vs external artists. The internal artist is the pseudo Shaolin-monk, Yi Long, fighting against the regular boxers. Boxing is considered to be an external art because the boxer gets fatigue quicker by exhaustion in a short time. As oppose to the physical strength, an internal artist may last a lot longer.

Ref: Internal artist, Yi Long(一龍)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVN4f8RBbY8
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Re: How do I fight with internal arts?

Postby ChiDragon » Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:55 pm

Internal arts are practices heavily emphasized on slow and deep breathing which know as abdominal breathing. The internal arts will effect the functions of the internal organs greatly. The ability for the internal organs to perform their functions is based on how much oxygen that was given to them. Hence, breathing is very important to the heath of the respiratory and circulatory systems.

Firstly, the lung is the most important organ in the respiratory system. The lung must be kept in its peak performance. So, it can provide ample oxygen to the rest of the organs. Secondly, the heart is the major organ in the circulatory system but relies on the lung to provide oxygen to produce the energy for cardio-muscle contraction. In addition, the heart is the only organ which provide a circulation channel between the lung and rest of the organs.

Abdominal breathing is the most effective breathing exercise for the lung to perform its function to the peak. The heath of the circulatory system depends on the performance of the respiratory system. If the respiratory system is not in good shape; then the heart will not perform its function properly. Hence, it will effect the health of the heart and the rest of the internal organs due to the lack of oxygen or hypoxia.

In order to understand the functions of the lung and the heart, one must have a good comprehension of muscle contraction. Muscle contraction has a tremendous effect on the human body. The goal of Tai Ji Chuan is to exercise every muscle in the body in conjunction with the abdominal breathing. Tai Ji will enhance the health of the lung and heart. Indeed, If these two organs are in good health, then the rest of the organs will take care themselves and carry out their functions effectively.

BTW Since Tai Ji involves with slow and deep breathing exercise, thus it is considered to be a form of internal arts.
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