TAIJIQUAN SPARRING

Postby rvc_ve » Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:25 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HengYu:
[B]Hitting - or allowing force through the body as a strike, requires jing, this is what external systems teach.

Thats why its necessary to learn fah jing or emmiting jing in taijiquan. Its the way taiji strike develop power, which its actually soft and less muscular, and rather relying in the tendons to create a "snapping" strike, that is more penetrating than a "hard" punch using more muscular "dull" force instead of "sharp" jing, and powered by full body movement.

Fah jing is mostly identified by observers with chen style since they practice their form with emmiting jing all the time. However, every style of taijiquan, including yang style has it. Its one of the many ways we can apply a move.

Yang cheng fu's student Fu zhon wen, practiced idividual mover from the form, specially peng-lu-ji-an with fah jing, and thats the method he learned from his master.

Chen Fu himself had a grat lever of fah jing, and in the previous generations of the yang family, specially yang ban hou was famous for his fah jing, that can still be found in the way some people who belong to his lineage practice the form.

But this is probably a subject of another thread huh?
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Postby psalchemist » Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:31 pm

Greetings DavidJ,

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Thanks for your reply. Image
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Of course, your right about the sequence of training making sense. I will accept your recommendation of achieving a "smooth and accurate form" before delving deeply into Pushing Hands and Sparring...I'm in no rush... really...I just truly enjoy the philosophy! Image
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You wrote:
<The more you have a sense of how to move well the better.> David...

I find that summarizes rather well...

Functionning on the simple ideology that one should, must, be capable of managing ones own movements and energies before attempting to manage anothers.
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Applications...I AM still learning...One by one...Week following week...Class after class...Very good...Thanks for your advice. Image
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Actually, this leads me to deduce more clearly one aspect of the form I hadn't really considered thus before...


Practicing form daily, not only refreshes and builds the physical neurological system.

It also, simultaneously,

Through practice of visualization of application, Yi, refreshes and builds the application memory catalogue...creating a type of mental index...

...For Yi...to then set the path for physical movements, energy configurations of Taijiquan, neurological systems to function.

Form builds and maintains the foundations for martial application...twofold...And is definitely an invaluable aspect in the study of internal, soft, martial arts, including Push Hands and Sparring.

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Thanks for the insight. Image
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Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby psalchemist » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:01 pm

Seasons Greetings Ray,

Fellow Taiji Enthusiast...You wrote:

<We use the 2 man set by learning it and repeating it with exact precision. After awhile you start getting creative and new things outside of the form start to appear...The funny thing is that after learning the two sides of the sparring set, sometimes I would get confused and start using different order in the moves. For example I start off being the attacker side, but at one point I use a move from the opposite side that my partner counters and in the end we stop doing the form and engage in spontaneous flowing of techniques. Alot of fun indeed!!!!> Ray

Definitely sounds like alot of fun! Image

Although I haven't had the pleasure in Pushing Hands, I have experienced this...creative effect...in my form practice...I'm just practicing my form, then...I realize I am executing a non-descript movement that is not even a part of the form.

Also, you wrote:
<And by the way, I just bought the latest issue of TAI CHI Magazine and it brings an article on the Yang Taiji sparring set with pictures and everything! It's a little different than the one I learned but it rocks! I highly recommend it! For the guys that stated that they are not familiar with applications yet, it can introduce you to the way a Taiji player should fight! Interesting article!!

Thanks for that reference...I will keep an eye opened for it, now that I am aware of it's existance.

A Tai Chi Magazine!...COOL!

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby psalchemist » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:12 pm

Greetings Ray,

You wrote:
<Actually, once you analize the solo form and the fighting set, you realize that there are applications for the four levels of combat on every move (punch, strike, chinna, takedown) > Ray

That's very, very interesting! Image

I shall have to progress through the form while searching for those aspects in every movement. Most definitely!

Nice project, thanks for the inspiration. Image

Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby psalchemist » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:33 pm

Greetings Heng Yu,

You wrote:
<I agree that some knowledge of the external is required to use the internal, as you cannot have yin without yang. Then it depends upon where you access the arts and begin training. A combined external/internal syllabus tends to speed the process up. Whereas a purely internal path will work, but ususally take a longer time. Yin, no matter how soft, will eventually lead to yang, if allowed to do so, and vice versa.> Heng Yu

I have wondered and pondered that point for quite a while now...

I studied the external art of Kung Fu prior to undertaking the internal art of Taijiquan and have suspected that it has assisted in my progress in Taijiquan.

I have considered studying the two in unison, however, have decided that I should wait until I have a greater foundation set up in Taijiquan, before combining the two entities.

What do you think of studying and practicing internal and external arts...

Should they be alternated between or simultaneously practiced?

How would you merge, in actual curriculum, these two arts?


Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby psalchemist » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:45 pm

Greetings Wushuer,

1) One armed push hands
2) Two armed push hands
3) Stepping push hands

4) Solo practice sparring sets
5) Partner practice sparring sets

6) Free style sparring against one player
7) Free style sparring against multiple players

That's a great list of the sequence outlined...Thanks for the input. Image

Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby psalchemist » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:53 pm

Hello Heng Yu,

You wrote:
<Hitting-or allowing force through the body as a strike, requires jing, this is what external systems teach. Where the difference lies, is in how the power transmitted is generated.> Heng Yu

That is an aspect I find quite intriguing...

May I ask...How do you define or describe the differences in power generation between the external and internal arts?

How are they "generated" differently?


Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby Wushuer » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:57 pm

Psalchemist:
It's a fairly standard list, but you're welcome.

I would recommend, highly, against combining hard styles and soft styles. For many, many reasons.
Eddie Wu gets a bit, let's say "testy", when asked about the possibility of combining Yang style TCC with Wu style TCC. There are a lot of very good reasons not to do so. I can't even imagine what his reaction would be if asked about combining a hard style martial art with TCC.
And rightfully so.
TCC is an internal art. At least the two styles have that much in common. To combine an external with an internal....

I have a rather extensive background in hard style martial arts, Tae Kwon Do to be specific. I can tell you now from first hand experience that TCC is a far superior form of martial art to TKD.
I would not wish to combine them, in fact have made a study of NOT combining them.
When I practice Wu style, I practice Wu style and keep it pure as far as I am able.
When I practice Yang Cheng Fu style I practice YCF style and keep it pure as far as I am able.
I no longer practice TKD, as I have found it to be a lot like work after TCC, not to mention extremely ineffective.

Do as you like, most people do, but I feel that trying to combine these two things is just not going to turn out well.
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Postby psalchemist » Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:11 pm

Greetings Wushuer,

Maybe I had better clarify "combine"...I do not mean in the sense of merging them in any sense...but, rather, the concept of studying and practicing both...separately...using them...separately...but simultaneously combined in a curriculum...While benefiting from both training purposes.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby DavidJ » Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:27 am

Psalchamist,

You wrote, > Functionning on the simple ideology that one should, must, be capable of managing ones own movements and energies before attempting to manage anothers. <

That you understand this is very, very good. Congratulations!

David J
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Postby psalchemist » Fri Dec 19, 2003 2:45 am

Greetings Heng Yu,

Thanks for your thorough reply to my questions, I appreciate it. Image

You wrote:
<That kind of depends upon why you practice Taijiquan in the first place; to ignore the mind whilst training the body will not lead to the highest levels> Heng Yu

Hmmm...judging by that response, I deduce I must have given the wrong impression...
If anything, the correlation between the psychological and physical aspects in Taijiquan is of primary, utmost interest, importance to me in my studies.

Firstly,
You wrote:
<The first level of unification is purely physical. When the musculature is free of habitual tension, the body weight will naturally fall, via the aligned posture, into the floor.> Heng Yu

Yes...INTO...the floor. A distinct sensation, that is, and an elusive task to achieve, for me. I have my moments, but nothing consistent or under my command yet in that domaine. I do know what you're referring to, though. Nicely described.

You continued to describe the effects...
Physical:
1)Rootedness
2)The practitioner is able to glide with ease in any direction with the force of an iron ball.
Psychological:
1)Calms the mind to an incredible degree.
Which in turn leads to
2)Unification of the mind and body.

<A calm mind percieves more. When the mind is not taken up solely with intellectual activity, the true spectrum of awareness comes to the fore...The body is permeated by awareness.> Heng Yu

I am now clear on your use of the term "unified existance"...Thenks for your explanations.

The awareness you speak of I have seen illustrated (even tried myself) in experiments with blindfold and opponent. When there is existance of such awareness, one need not see the opponent to know where he is, or his intention. There is no thought involved it is purely "feel" and "awareness"...That's one really fun way to test out ones awareness, to see how honed it is.

When a practitioner is faced with multiple partners , I have heard that he should not focus his vision on any one opponent in particular, but rather "feel" for all of them.
Looking detracts from "feeling" and "awareness"...apparently.

If one is song then one becomes rooted. This I understand, but I have never heard any previous allusions to "...with the force of an iron ball"...May I ask what source that imagery was drawn from?

Although I am versed in the concepts of awareness, or unified existance, I am still uncertain as to your reference to 'striking fear, confusion and panic into an opponent' with it's prevalence...Slight disconcertedness, perhaps...???

Lastly, you wrote:
The relaxing of the tension is achieved with the dropping of the breath and the opening of the Qi channels> Heng Yu

Can I assume you portend towards sinking the Qi to the cinnabar field, the Tantien point, when you say "dropping the breath"?
And
Donning correct posture, proper alignment, when you say "opening the Qi channels"?

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.
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Postby HengYu » Fri Dec 19, 2003 12:35 pm

Traditionally speaking, many schools of Chinese martial arts were made up of an external and internal element. The styles were never mixed in the sense that they merged, on the contrary; young immature students tended to be full of undirected energy which was placed into robust external training - when they physically and mentally matured, and reached a state of mind ready for internal training, they would be allowed to progress into internal training. It is the mind and body of the student that changes, not the styles used to trigger the change. You can not have yin without yang, so it would follow that you can't have internal without external. Yang is within all yin and vice versa, so no style is truly either internal or external. Training from a yin perspective will eventually find yang, and from a yang perspective will eventually find yin - if it does not, the student's progress ceases.
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Postby Zak » Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:40 am

i enjoy sparing w/friends who have no formal combat traning. I find my self using movements from the form with out having any thought. then a'll stop and absorb what just happend [mentaly] and continue. my friends are drunks so its a isn't easy but its fun,however I feal that it is hindering the devlopment of control.
one thing that makes me un'easy is im having trouble finding any one who is as motivated or more than me whem it comes to martial apps while keeping body mechanics peramont as well as the diff. energes [sticky, listntng, sencing etc..]. My instructors are extremly talented and I feal honord to train W/them. they emphasize on proper body mechanics leaving the imagination for apps. the problem, most peaple don't have the patients to profect the body mechanics.personaly i dont know how learned to love this art but i do.
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Postby bamboo leaf » Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:02 am

(Also does anyone have any idea why sparring in Taijiquan is such a limited feature?)

having just returned from china I would like to share some thoughts. I think it really depends on the level of push hands one does to really understand why sparring in the sense that most people view it is kind of dangerous if a person has any high level skill at all.

In taiji just only a touch is needed, either someone touching you or you touching them it¡¯s the same. Think about it.

With just a touch, I saw others and myself thrown many feet by the teacher and also by of some of his long term students.

Use of any hard power at all would have resulted in me probably getting hurt. Its not really something that they control as you really have supplied all the force needed.

As it was by really using their yi, and shen there is really not much one can do agints it, if your level is to low and you can not senes it then trully not much can be done. if you level is higher, things become a little more interesting. people can be thrown many feet with little to no movement.

This is why so much time is really spent developing and acquiring true inner skill sets. The master (86) and his older students many in their 60 or 70 invite you to try anything that you want. You get thrown or bounced out quite far, if he or they wanted to hurt you they could.

So most if not all the time is spent on developing and testing inner skills, insuring that the skill is true and in line with the masters skills and ideas.

Having said it depends on the level of push hands has nothing to really do with pushing or not, it has to do with the inner development and testing this. an example of this would be the ability to place your hands flat on someone¡¯s wrists during push hands and pull them up till they are totally off their feet and release them with out grabbing or grasping with totally relaxed arms.

Sounds unbelievable until you are pulled in this manor, this is inner skill an example of high level usage of taiji on many levels.

So you either try to develop the higher aspects, and slowly over time you get there or you spar with low level skills sets that may or may not work but will never lead to any high level skill.

When I use the term high and low level, I use them meaning easier to develop. understand, and use. Not as in one is better then the other both are very different skills depends on ones ability and inclinations.

just my thoughts and experinces, not a judgment of others practices.

david


[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 03-14-2005).]

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 03-14-2005).]
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Postby bamboo leaf » Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:27 am

(What do you think of studying and practicing internal and external arts...)

I think it¡¯s a big mistake made by many. They really are very different directions and trainings. Outer arts train the skin, tendons and bone. Inner arts train the shen, yi and qi. Very different abilities often confused because there are so few that really use the inner aspects.

When you meet someone who can it really is very clear. Yes its extremely hard to do and will never happen unless one is willing to give up training in anything that tends to train the outer way.

One must be ruthless, and totally honest in their approach to this. otherwise what is achieved is not really real. No use against anyone who truly has inner skills that are well developed.
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