Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby fchai » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:48 pm

How are these two applied differently? I have been reviewing their applications in san shou dui da and their descriptions by Fu Zhong Wen and Yang Cheng Fu (translations by Louis Swaim). According to the Fu Zhong Wen's description the hand strikes towards temple height with 'flying oblique', and at shoulder height with 'wild horse parts mane'. In 'san shou dui da', both of these are applied with an arm sweep through the armpit of the opponent. In application, these would seem to be to all intents and purposes, identical. However, I note that in the application by Yang Cheng Fu and Fu Zhong Wen, the 'wild horse parts mane' posture causes the opponent to fall back. Not so with the 'flying oblique'. My interpretation is that with 'wild horse parts mane' it is invariably applied by stepping behind the opponent and causing the opponent to fall back as the arm sweeps through the armpit. Another interpretation is that 'flying oblique' is applied using 'peng' and rebounding energy, while 'wild horse parts mane' uses 'cai' and deflection, then 'peng'. Any further interpretations?

Yours in Taijiquan,
Frank
fchai
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:11 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby Subitai » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:17 am

Hi fchai ,

I'll give you a general theme as to how my school looks at it. Obviously others on here may view it differently.

GENERALLY Speaking: Assuming one hand is controlling / holding a wrist for example and the other arm is attacking.
The way I learned "parting horse main", is usually over the arm and "Slant flying" is usually under the arm but not always.

As you noted, they are interchangeable....but they should be adjusted as per your height and how you stand next to your opponent. If you're shorter it's easier to go under and if you're taller...as we say "take the high road".

For parting horse mane...we think of it more-so as strike
- if over the arm I teach towards the neck and collar bone area
- if under " ", it's usually to the ribs and or attacking the structure
- in this, the energy is more direct into the opponents center
- it's not necessary to step behind your opponent

For Slant flying...it's more about stepping behind and dropping them down.
In this, the energy is more rounded and it can adjust easier to what your opponent is trying to do in countering it.

The last clue for both is in what direction in relation to the persons feet are you applying energy. We teach never to go against the power of how a person is standing...better to get him in a line perpendicular to his base. Some people get so caught up in what is going on "UP TOP" that they forget to also attack a persons root.

Of course there are a ton of variations. More important in my opinion is realistically getting there. It's one thing to pull it off from push hands or in a demo, it's another to do it when going more LIVE. That's what i'd rather focus on.

(Lastly as a side note)= my pet peeve is when people post videos of them destroying their students but never show they know how to counter their own moves.
http://taichi-ledyardct.webs.com/

"O" Some believe that you need to make another human being tap out to be a valid art. But I am constantly reminding them that I only have to defend myself and keep you from hurting me in order to Win."
Subitai
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:53 am
Location: Southeastern, CT. USA

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:24 pm

Subatai gives a very concise explanation, very much in line with how I've heard these described.
I can only add that Diagonal Flying is larger, more expansive, with a greater splitting of the energy and a definite bump to the opponents stance/root just prior to the take down.
Part Wild Horses Mane is a shorter, sharper application that can be applied with a bump to the stance or not, depending on the situation.
It depends greatly on where you are in relation to your opponent as to which one of these you would use.
If your opponent is more to your side or even behind you, you're probably going to use DF.
If your opponent is more in front of you, then using PWH is more advisable.
BTW... the "pull down" off the off arm isn't necessarily required to make either of these effective. You don't necessarily have to have a hold of their off arm to make either of these effective.
You will still want to express that energy, as it will balance yours across your body, but the applications can be made, quite effectively, even without it. The effect on your opponent changes but it is still quite useful.
In fact, I often apply these without grabbing onto my opponents off arm as a preferred method.
Bob Ashmore
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
Location: Frankfort, KY, USA

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby fchai » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:12 am

Greetings,
Thank you both for your thoughts on this. It has given me further food food thought. With the close similarity of these two moves, I can understand how at times their execution might be so alike as to be indistinguishable. However, you both clearly differentiate the movements in the manner you would apply them against an opponent. As I am of an age where I do not spar anymore, I will think through the mechanics of what you have described and how the energies would flow in the execution.
Yours in Taiji,
Frank
fchai
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:11 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:39 pm

Two things:
One,
Something about my post yesterday kept nagging at me ever since I hit "submit".
Returning here today and reading my post with fresh eyes, I now see why that is.
I said, "Off arm". Not just once, but twice.
I have no idea why I would have used that term.
There's nothing "off" about the arm in question here, so it escapes even me why I would have said that either time.
Let's just pretend I said "arm" and leave it at that.

Two,
Energy...
It's a fickle mistress, to be sure.
Discussing "energy" in this type of format, a discussion online, simply makes my teeth itch.
Why?
Because "energy" means so many things to so many people and none of them are even remotely similar most of the time.
I much prefer to address movement in terms of applications rather than energies, especially when it's not possible for those discussing them to feel the energies in action.
Just a personal preference. Others will see it different.

Good luck with your studies!
Bob Ashmore
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
Location: Frankfort, KY, USA

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby fchai » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:54 am

Greetings Bob,
Thank you for your clarifications though the 'off arm' comment was not an issue, allowing for the built in redundancy in the English language. I can also understand and empathise why your teeth itches when 'energy' is discussed in these public forums. The same also happens to me when 'qi' is discussed. The problem arises from how the scientific world sees 'energy' and how the Taoist sees 'energy'. As I've previously commented to friends, it is like the Newtonian universe and the Einsteinian universe, there are attributes of similarity and commonality, but do not assume that they are the same or that one explains the other.
Take care,
Frank
fchai
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:11 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby Subitai » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:45 pm

Love the input Bob...it shows you've done your homework...:)

About the Cai or pluck or grab of the wrist...I prefer it for a few reasons:

- mostly because if I know where my opponents arm is at ALL times it cannot hurt me. If he makes a change, yield or rotation it's easier to feel.

- without control of the wrist it's easier... ( Not easy per say) that they have a better chance to defend.

2 extra cts
http://taichi-ledyardct.webs.com/

"O" Some believe that you need to make another human being tap out to be a valid art. But I am constantly reminding them that I only have to defend myself and keep you from hurting me in order to Win."
Subitai
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:53 am
Location: Southeastern, CT. USA

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby Bob Ashmore » Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:29 pm

Subitai,
One of the major downsides to Tai Chi Chuan homework is that you can't get away with telling your teacher that the dog ate it. :lol:

About the pluck being preferable...
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It really just depends on where my opponent is, where I am, and what we are both doing at that moement.
There are way too many possibilities to know what will be the best method to use until you're actually in the soup.
I find it best to be ready, willing, and able to do anything so I can do whatever is necessary for each situation.
As for the listening energy...
Aren't you still in contact with your opponent with your other arm?
Or your leg?
Or your torso?
Bob Ashmore
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
Location: Frankfort, KY, USA

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby Subitai » Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:25 pm

Bob Ashmore wrote:Subitai,
One of the major downsides to Tai Chi Chuan homework is that you can't get away with telling your teacher that the dog ate it. :lol:

About the pluck being preferable...
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It really just depends on where my opponent is, where I am, and what we are both doing at that moement.
There are way too many possibilities to know what will be the best method to use until you're actually in the soup.
I find it best to be ready, willing, and able to do anything so I can do whatever is necessary for each situation.
As for the listening energy...
Aren't you still in contact with your opponent with your other arm?
Or your leg?
Or your torso?


:) Well right back at cha bro... Yes / No, only I would prefer caution before you go there.

My point of view is to stick and know where my opponent is before I enter...if I have pluck (especially on wrist) so much the better. As a teacher and as a fighter, I like when people grab me...it means I know where they are. Some people think it's a disadvantage. It's a difficult road to travel...as a teacher we often say, "he who holds, is also held by himself"
**But Not if you know what you're doing.

From my experience, I don't try to query the possibilities, Humans only have 4 limbs and head and a torso. Patience and experience to wait or set up the things I like to use is the mature way to approach it.

You asked about my leg or my torso...if I'm connected with those, I'm most certainly controlling or KNOWING where your arms are prior to that.

Assuming we're still talking about Taiji:
If my leg or torso is connected, I already have a control point prior to that... usually I want to know where the arms are before entering.

As I alluded to earlier, if you just lash out with parting horse mane without any control...It might work but they also have a better chance to defend.
http://taichi-ledyardct.webs.com/

"O" Some believe that you need to make another human being tap out to be a valid art. But I am constantly reminding them that I only have to defend myself and keep you from hurting me in order to Win."
Subitai
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:53 am
Location: Southeastern, CT. USA

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:17 pm

My questions were designed to showcase that it doesn't matter at what points we are in contact with our opponent, wherever they are we should use them for listening energy. They were meant to be rhetorical.
The lead up imagery for our imaginary encounter had been dispensed with at the time of my questions regarding the possible listening points. We'd already made contact with the opponent, have read what's going on, have made our on the fly decision, and are now extending into our opponent in the manner which our experience and training lead us to believe is best for the scenario at hand.
In this particular imaginary scenario we clearly designated that we're imagining applying PWHM/DF, so we do have some definite points of contact that we can assume have happened based on that as well as others that are likely but may also not have happened.
We are going to be in contact with at least our upward warding off arm.
Most likely also with our torso (that can be anywhere from our shoulder to our hip, maybe both).
It's possible we'll be in contact with at least one point on one a leg as well (this would be more likely if using PWHM but can also happen in DF).
In or scenario the downward plucking arm may or may not be holding our opponents arm at this point, we can't know if it is or not. It might, it might not. If so that's great, if not then that's great too.
It's not always going to be necessary to have that grasp on that arm. It's also not necessary to be grasping it to know where it is or what it's doing. Nor is it necessary to be grasping it to be in control of it.
You do know that, right?
That grip may be there, it may even be preferable (most of the time I do concede that it would be), however it also may not be AND it also is not always going to be preferable.
Either way, at this point in our imaginary scenario, it's usefulness as a point for listening to our opponent has been established and cannot be changed one way or the other.
If it's not, then rather than spend any time lamenting what's NOT there for us to use wouldn't it be better to just use what is available and move on?

"Assuming we're still talking about Taiji..."?
I have no idea what else we'd be talking about here. Knitting? Bob sledding?
I am talking about Tai Chi Chuan and, in case you didn't know, there is more than one flavor of that dish.
The flavor that I am most familiar with the martial applications from is Wu Chien Chuan TCC, which is small frame TCC.
Let's be clear about the primary weapons based on frame size/distance from opponent (closely related but not always equal) in TCC:
Large frame: hands and feet.
Middle frame: elbows and knees.
Small frame: torso
Hopefully that will clear things up for you a bit about my perspective on applications.
I don't consider it necessary to bind or control all of my opponents limbs prior to making contact torso to torso. As long as I'm in control of his center that's all I usually need to be in control of all of him.
I demonstrate this on a regular basis for my students. They always seem amazed by it but I consider it to be quite normal.

As for someone grabbing you...
"What are you going to do?"
Those of us who have attended a seminar with Yang Jun know that line well. :)
GM Yang is quite good at explaining why an opponent grabbing you is rarely a good idea, for them.
Si Kung Eddie Wu and his disciples also used to teach about this and they also taught us repeatedly that someone grabbing you is like being handed a gift.
Grabbing someone is usually a bad idea unless...
You know how.
Shhh.....
Ancient Chinese secret! :roll:
OK... no it's not.
It really isn't that hard to do.
Once you know how.
I tend to avoid doing so, for a lot of very good reasons, but if/when I have to I don't shy away from it either.
Bob Ashmore
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
Location: Frankfort, KY, USA

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby Subitai » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:26 am

Really Bob...I sense a little attitude. I don't know why since I don't think my tone or content should have been construed that way. Perhaps the very 1st thing being a Smile emoticon didn't convey that? If you met me, we'd either be drinking tea or beer...whichever you prefer. :)

You said, imaginary (multiple times) I don't need to think in those terms. In all the years most likely both of us have been practicing our styles, I'm sure combined we've both applied some facsimile of PHM or such 100's if not a 1000 times. I know I have because of teaching and training for so long.

You want to go off on a tangent that's important to you...go for it, good on you. I never refuted you. I'm simply saying that IMO it's better to have some sort of control and in the context of PHM for example...I believe it's better.

I acknowledged that most of the time grabbing would not be a good idea. Unless you know what you're doing. I was simply trying to expand upon my point of view. In addition you also conceded that a grip would be preferable...I'm content with that.

I'm familiar with the frames of Taiji :) ..... haha

Yes we are talking about Taiji...I'm not sure how often you touch hands with Non Taiji people but my point of view is important to me because many times I am not just dealing with other Taiji people. I assumed mabe you're the same way, so I was being clear. I'm not sure if you know...but if your torso gets that close to mine...I will grapple you and that changes the game somewhat. IF you don't believe that, then you're not fighting tough enough opponents.

You said: I don't consider it necessary to bind or control all of my opponents limbs prior to making contact torso to torso.

# ! I NEVER SAID ALL Limbs need to be in control... I just prefer to have a stick point on at least one.

*** I'm going to Imagine this now and in the context of Taiji:
1) In one instance we are standing in front of each-other... For example, right foot adjacent to others right foot...but we have our hands behind our backs. Somehow your going to close the gap on me and connect torso to torso. I believe you. Ok that one was a joke... take a joke!! :P HAHA.

2) ...we're standing the same way with both our arms (or at least one) already touching.
- If you believe you can get to my torso with your torso, without any sort of arm control = your crazy.
- If you believe that you can negate the use of BOTH my own hands (arms) with out at least having control of at least one of them....before I can counter you = you're out of your mind!

I would hope one day to meet you...friendly I would buy you noodles and or tea / beer, to please demonstrate this. If you could do that to me. I swear I would quit the Martial world forever.


- Something like that might happen only If it's a mutual desire (because I want that to happen). 2 people exchanging in push hands or testing eachothers skills mutually for example.


Otherwise I'll say it again...I said that I'd prefer to have at least one stick or control point before entering. Then you had to point out my flawed thinking.
http://taichi-ledyardct.webs.com/

"O" Some believe that you need to make another human being tap out to be a valid art. But I am constantly reminding them that I only have to defend myself and keep you from hurting me in order to Win."
Subitai
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:53 am
Location: Southeastern, CT. USA

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby Bob Ashmore » Fri Feb 26, 2016 6:03 pm

Subitai,
Sorry if I conveyed an "attitude" as it was not my intention.
Perhaps it reads that way, unfortunately conveying meaning in printed media is difficult to gauge.
I was was going for amusement and elucidation, I guess it came across differently.
If so, my apologies.
I would gladly eat noodles and drink tea with you, anytime.

I am, unfortunately, quite pressed for time today and have been for some time.
Between working a lot of overtime at the day job, dealing with the home front, teaching four classes a week (hopefully more soon), and administering my school I've been quite hectic these last few weeks.
I will come back to our discussion when I can, as I was quite enjoying it (which is why I popped in here while eating my lunch).
In the meantime, enjoy your practice.

Bob
Bob Ashmore
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
Location: Frankfort, KY, USA

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby Parkallen » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:41 am

I don't think anyone mentioned the oblique aspect of these techniques. Both of them as we know actually exhibit a slight forward slant, rare in the Yang form, and so it seems significant it would be used in these techniques. I have not experimented with the slant much myself, but it results in bringing your shoulder in nearer to your opponent's upper body which takes up their space and adds natural strength to the rotation of the said technique. That kind of nearness is not common in Yang style maybe that's why I rarely use it, but now I think I'll try it.
Parkallen
 
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:58 pm

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:13 pm

Parkallen,
"That kind of nearness is not common in Yang style..."?
I practice Traditional Yang Family TCC per GM Yang Jun and that nearness is done throughout if that is what is necessary.
Earlier in this thread I iterated the three frames of TCC and their corresponding primary weapons. As I have discovered over time all three of those frames are built directly into the "large frame" of TYFTCC and can be applied quite easily from inside the "large, open, extended" movements used in the forms.
One of the primary reasons, at least to my way of thinking, that the "large frame" is also called the "teaching frame". That and you can clearly see at least all of the external movements when viewing it, which makes it a lot easier to learn how to do it. But I digress.
Consider any of the postures from TYFTCC, any one of them, and I can guarantee you that in it you will find torso to torso contact very possible.
What you will also find is a degree of diagonal slant in each and every one of them, not just in Diagonal Flying/Part Wild Horses Mane.
Consider Brush Knee and Twist Step, for example.
In the movement when you begin the forward sweep of the forward arm and you use that positioning to flow your arm over top of your opponents arm as he grasps to your shoulder, then fold forward slightly into him, you will feel the diagonal slant as your torso and his begin to move together. At the end of the movement you should be "leaning" forward as well to apply the energy from your back foot in a clear manner.
In White Crane Spreads Wings, after you have made the turn and are moving forward while extending and opening into the "end position", there is a clear forward diagonal fold of the torso. If you remain perfectly upright during this movement you will be very unbalanced.
It is simply everywhere in the Yang family form.
Sometimes it is very small, other times (DF/PWHM) is is overt and large.

Simply my personal and not so humble opinion.
Perhaps my time training in the "leaning" style of Wu Chien Chuan has forever corrupted my views on this concept and I am not the best person to ask about "leaning" or "slanting".
Because, to me, it is always present, and always should be.

Cheers.
Bob Ashmore
 
Posts: 725
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
Location: Frankfort, KY, USA

Re: Flying Oblique / Wild Horse Parts Mane

Postby Audi » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:55 pm

Greetings all,

I don't think anyone mentioned the oblique aspect of these techniques. Both of them as we know actually exhibit a slight forward slant, rare in the Yang form, and so it seems significant it would be used in these techniques.


FYI, in the Association’s form, we actually have a lean in all of our posture, except for Ward Off Left, Single Whip, and Fan through the Back. The lean is only slight in postures with an empty stance, but can be quite pronounced in the bow stances. The reason for the exception in the four postures I mentioned is because we have a very open torso position, have energy going in opposite directions, and need torso support in both directions.

There are two way to interpret “oblique” or “diagonal” in the case of “Diagonal Flying.” One way is vertically, and the other is horizontally. Since we have another posture called “Diagonal Single Whip” that lends itself to a horizontal interpretation, I have assumed the same applies to “Diagonal Flying.” In both pastures, the direction of the stance is toward a “compass” diagonal, rather than to the direct front, back, left or right of the overall flow of the form.

As for the difference in energy, we teach that Diagonal Flying emphasizes Split energy because of the greater scope of the motion and Parting Wild Horses Mane emphasizes Ward Off Energy. This link is one of the movements we would call a Ward Off application of Parting Wild Horses Mane. In this link, the connection is made even clearer. Within this latter posture, it is also easy to feel and/or apply kao or elbowing energy, depending upon the distance and the intent.

Take care,
Audi
Audi
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 7:01 am
Location: New Jersey, USA

Next

Return to Tai Chi Chuan - Barehand Form

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest