Fajin

Fajin

Postby Siahn » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:43 am

Is Fajin real ?
Last edited by Siahn on Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Real or just sub-conscious compliancy?

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:02 pm

Hello, Siahn

It seems unreal but it is real. One has to practice Tai Ji Chuan for years to reach the fa jin level and experience it to believe it.
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Re: Fa Jin at different level and method

Postby ChiDragon » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:38 pm

Last edited by ChiDragon on Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fa Jin at different level and method

Postby Siahn » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:17 pm



Very interesting. Thank you ChiDragon
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Re: Fajin

Postby fchai » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:25 am

Hi Siahn,

Much has been written and commented about 'fajin'. However, it is important to discriminate between reality and fantasy, or perhaps I should say, the highly improbable and far-fetched. In my humble opinion, there is physics in this. ''Fajin'' is not some esoteric supernatural power. With training and practice one develops the proficiency of 'rooting', integration of upper and lower, ''sinking the qi'', ''internal energy'', etc. All this allows one to express overt force with maximum effectiveness when necessary. It is not the ''Force'' of Star Wars (LoL)! So, do not expect to waggle your finger and to send someone flying away into the distance.

Take care.
Frank
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Re: Fajin

Postby Audi » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:51 am

Hi Everyone,

Is Fajin real ?

Absolutely, but I think there is much confusion about what exactly it is. For the Association’s Tai Chi, my understanding is that all manipulation of energy (i.e., jin 劲) can generally be divided between either neutralizing or issuing. In other words, you are generally doing one or the other and constantly switching between the two.

Some say that the traditional Yang family form no longer has fajin in it. A better way of looking at it is that we no longer do most of the postures with “explosive” movements, but that each posture should still have a storing and releasing of energy. Releasing of energy is basically another way of saying fajin. To focus on “explosive” fajin as a specific skill, we generally use exercises outside of the form and have specific requirements around this.

As for demonstrations of “explosive” movements on YouTube and elsewhere, I think some folks try to demonstrate skills that they do not in fact have or that even defy settled laws of physics. On these grounds and others, I would suggest that they are not good role models for how to pursue Tai Chi. Often, if you watch very closely during moments when they are less guarded or less prepared, you can see more realistic aspects of what skills they truly possess.

Other people demonstrate specific, sometimes extraordinary skills under circumstances and restrictions that are not always obvious to an uninitiated observer. If you do not know these circumstances and restrictions, it is easy to misjudge what exactly is being demonstrated. For instance, some exercises require specific energy input from a partner that is not easily visible from the outside. Another issue is that a person may be demonstrating a particular push hands skill (e.g., a specific counter) without making any particular claim about his or her general fighting prowess. On the other hand, a person may be demonstrating something that may look quite ordinary (e.g., a push), but may well be claiming that with a slight alteration of the movement might be an effective fighting technique.

I personally do not like demonstrations that try to show extraordinary power without explaining the mechanism, because it tends to mislead practitioners about what is going on. To me, fajin is about as ordinary or as miraculous as rooting. Why insist on casting it as something mysterious? I think fajin can also be thought of as similar to hitting a long drive in golf, hitting a booming tennis serve, hitting a fastball in baseball, getting up on a surf board, or many similar activities. Just doing them once, is not exactly easy, but is not really miraculous either. Ordinary people with ordinary practice can expect to be able to do them. What is extraordinary is the level of skill and consistency that some people obtain in these endeavors.

Take care,
Audi
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Re: Fajin

Postby ChiDragon » Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:54 am

Siahn wrote:Is Fajin real ?

Hi, Siahn

FaJin(發勁) is very real. Jin(勁) is an explosive force which was generated by the muscles. FaJin is to issue an explosive force. The ability to fajin is the ultimate realm of Tai Ji practice. In order to fajin, jin has to be developed in the body. How does jin developed in the body? Actually, it is very simple. It's not a matter who has one learnt it from; nor, how well one does the forms. It is how much practice one had done in the past. One had to practice the slow movements, diligently, day-by-day and year-by-year. Without realizing what had taken place inside the body, indeed, the physical strength of the body has been increased tremendously. The tremendous body strength was considered to be the jin. Thus, anytime when the jin was issued by any part of the body was considered to be fajin.

The amount of jin to be issued may be controlled by the practitioner such as 10%, 20%, 30%........100%. The amount of jin to be issued depends on the jin of the opponent to be counteracted. Otherwise, it would be a waste of jin if more was issued than necessary.

Fajin can be deadly. If it was not used wisely, it may be fatal to body injury or the health of others.
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Re: Fajin

Postby Bob Ashmore » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:57 pm

Sian,
Define "real" for me? :roll:
I'm curious, what do you mean to learn by asking this question in this manner?
Asking this question here wouldn't seem to be the best way to go about learning the answer, at least to me, as we could all simply lie about it to keep the "myth" alive if we were so inclined. So even if we all simply answered "Yes", how could you be sure?
How about this...
There are numerous videos that anyone can find on Youtube as well as other similar sites that will "show" you "fajin" being applied. You could watch those.
If after seeing the videos you still doubt that it exits then to learn the answer you could simply find a qualified TCC instructor and ask him to apply it against you in order to verify it's existence in your own mind.
Yes, I have done that before.
Numerous times, actually.
But it's even easier than that...
Do it yourself.
Fajin is so easy to do almost anyone who can see lightning and hear thunder can do it.
Here's how:
Make a fist, punch something.
That's it. You're done.
Easy peasy, you've just verified the existence of fajin all on your own and in a fashion that you simply can no longer doubt.
Because...
All it means is to issue power in an explosive manner and it is not limited to TCC in any way, shape, or form.

Bob Bu-Hao (and how!)
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Re: Fajin

Postby ChiDragon » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:04 pm

Bob Ashmore wrote:Do it yourself.
Fajin is so easy to do almost anyone who can see lightning and hear thunder can do it.
Here's how:
Make a fist, punch something.
That's it. You're done.
Easy peasy, you've just verified the existence of fajin all on your own and in a fashion that you simply can no longer doubt.
Because...
All it means is to issue power in an explosive manner and it is not limited to TCC in any way, shape, or form.

Bob Bu-Hao (and how!)

This is totally contradicts to my post above. It is not advisable just to ask any ordinary person to "Make a fist, punch something." In actuality, it was just a punch rather than fajin. Unless the person is muscular build with a strong wrist; otherwise, the punch could have had done severe damage to the wrist. Sorry to say, I am quite surprised to hear this statement made from a TCC instructor which seems to be lack of some basic knowledge about fajin.

As a matter of fact, a Tai Ji practitioner do not make straight punches. The movements are always in circular motions to guide the opponent away from one's body. Those punching and kicking to cause body injury is not the intention of what Tai Ji Chuan is all about.
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Re: Fajin

Postby global village idiot » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:27 pm

Then explain "Twin Fists Through the Ears" or "Step Up, Parry & Groin Punch."

Sometimes a punch is just a punch; and like I said, tai chi does not apologize for the damage it causes.

gvi
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Re: Fajin

Postby ChiDragon » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:29 pm

雙峰貫耳
"Twin Fists Through the Ears"
It is just one of the basic movements; it was not considered to be a move in Fajin.
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Re: Fajin

Postby fchai » Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:33 am

Greetings,

Every movement in Taiji has the capacity to apply ''fajin''. 'Nuf said.

Take care,
Frank
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Re: Fajin

Postby ChiDragon » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:44 am

hmmmm....really?
I don't see how one can fajin, effectively, on a Single Whip(單鞭) or the White Crane Spread its Wings(白鹤亮翅). Definitely, it's not the Twin Fists Through the Ears(雙峰貫耳).
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Re: Fajin

Postby Audi » Sat Sep 10, 2016 5:35 pm

Hello everyone,

To me "fajin" simply means "send out energy." All martial artists do it regardless of style, even if Taijiquan has its own specific method. Most other styles to not use the term fajin, because their principles do not work with energy in a way that makes such a concept very useful.

For our style, it is important to recognize that all types of fighters do fajin in some fashion; otherwise, our jin neutralizations would be useless against them. We do not learn to fight only against other Tai Chi players, but against any type of martial artist. Although there are many ways to work with jin, in the end, jin is just jin, regardless of how produced. That is precisely why we want to learn to understand it ("dong jin" or 懂劲) and be able to apply those learnings against anyone.

The results of the fajin we use in Tai Chi can seem out explosive in appearance or at least out of proportion to the energy input. It is not mystical,even though some folk concoct demonstrations to exaggerate or falsify their level of skill. Similarly, many have claimed special body or mental skills to stop bullets. Would these be believable, even in a YouTube video?

Every movement in Taiji has the capacity to apply ''fajin''


That is the training approach that I have been taught and that I practice. I would also add that you want to be able to apply fajin with any part of the body. I don't know how many points on the body we actually practice with, but it is certainly far into double digits.

I don't see how one can fajin, effectively, on a Single Whip(單鞭) or the White Crane Spread its Wings(白鹤亮翅). Definitely, it's not the Twin Fists Through the Ears(雙峰貫耳).


I can understand why you might include White Crane Spreads its Wings in this list, since it is mostly shown only as a neutralization. In our form, we also perform it as a neutralization. We can, however, also use it as a throw and so can perform it with fajin.

As for Single Whip and Twin First Through the Ears, we definitely can perform both with explosive movement. Don't Yang Chengfu's books also show fajin applications for both of these? If you yourself do not ever perform them with fajin, what application do you envision for them?

As a matter of fact, a Tai Ji practitioner do not make straight punches. The movements are always in circular motions to guide the opponent away from one's body.


I would agree that Tai Chi is based on circular movement, but are you advocating that Tai Chi has no straight punches or straight movement at all? If so, how do you interpret the following saying:

"Store energy like drawing a bow. Issue energy like shooting an arrow. Seek the straight in the curved. Store and then release."

"蓄劲如张弓,发劲如放箭,曲中求直,蓄而后发"

I would say that our form has both straight and circular punches.

Take care,
Audi
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Re: Fajin

Postby ChiDragon » Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:02 pm

Audi wrote:Hello everyone,

To me "fajin" simply means "send out energy." All martial artists do it regardless of style, even if Taijiquan has its own specific method. Most other styles to not use the term fajin, because their principles do not work with energy in a way that makes such a concept very useful.


Very good! You are so right. As I had pointed out before, there is a difference between fali(發力) and fajin(發勁), jin can be acquired by Tai Chi practitioners, only. All others martial artists do not possess jin as Tai Chi practitioners would. They only use the term li(力) but not jin(勁). Even though, "send out energy" can be for both li and jin, but please don't let the English word "energy" plays trick on you. These two esoteric terms jin(勁) and fajin(發勁) are strictly used in Tai Chi. Thus 發勁 means fajin other than fali.

I would agree that Tai Chi is based on circular movement, but are you advocating that Tai Chi has no straight punches or straight movement at all? If so, how do you interpret the following saying:

"Store energy like drawing a bow. Issue energy like shooting an arrow. Seek the straight in the curved. Store and then release."

"蓄劲如张弓,发劲如放箭,曲中求直,蓄而后发"

I would say that our form has both straight and circular punches.

Take care,
Audi



I think you are taken the above Chinese phrases too literally. They do not imply the action of any kind.

蓄劲如张弓,发劲如放箭
These two phrases were used to describe jin(勁) which is analogous to the potential energy stored in a pulled bow; and the speed as a shooting arrow. Furthermore, the phrase 曲中求直 was describing the pulled bow in curvature. It was waiting for the potential energy to be released. Hence, after the arrow was released, the bow will become straightened.
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