microcosmic orbit - xiao zhou tian

microcosmic orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby Christiano » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:50 pm

Does the YFTCC practise the microcosmic orbit as an exercise?

I have read some of the Dr. Yang J. Ming books and he puts a lot of emphasis on the practice of the microcosmic orbit, as an unique qigong method, however, in the books about Yang Style - Fu Zhongwen, and reading the principles, and other articles and material from YFTCC I could not find any mention to that practise as an exercise.
There´s however, the mention that focusing the energy at the top, this will promote the chi circulation, from top to bottom, which may be related to the bai hui & hui yin points, connecting the governing and conception vessels.

So is this kept as a kind of 'internal knowledge', or is just the way to develop it that is implicit in the form training, rather than a meditative qigong exercise?
Last edited by Christiano on Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: microcosmi orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby ChiDragon » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:45 am

Greetings! Christiano

Normally, there are two methods of qigong, the microcosmic orbit(小周天) and macrocosmic orbit(大周天) . The former has to be practiced prior the latter. These two methods of qigong are a form of breathing exercise performed by zazen or 打坐(da zuo) or sitting meditation. They were invented and practiced by a group of Chinese Taoists in the Wudang Mountain(武當山) of China.

the mention that focusing the energy at the top, this will promote the chi circulation, from top to bottom, which may be related to the bai hui & hui yin points, connecting the governing and conception vessels.

This is what the Taoists believe it had been taken place during the macrocosmic orbit(大周天).

The ordinary Tai Chi practitioners do not practice the microcosmic orbit(小周天) nor macrocosmic orbit(大周天).
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Re: microcosmi orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby Christiano » Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:52 am

Thank you by the very clear answer. ;)
Christiano
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Re: microcosmi orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby Audi » Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:12 am

Hi Everyone,

I basically agree with ChiDragon. Some Tai Chi practitioners practice this type of Qigong as part of the training, but, as far as I am aware, it is not part of the family style.

What is the emphasis that Dr. Yang J. Ming puts on it? How does he see that it benefits his Tai Chi?

Thanks,
Audi
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Re: microcosmi orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby Christiano » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:09 pm

Audi wrote:
What is the emphasis that Dr. Yang J. Ming puts on it? How does he see that it benefits his Tai Chi?

Thanks,
Audi


Well, I only know about what I've read on his books: according to them, to be able to emit jin through the hands, one has to be able to store and circulate qi, so there are stages to get this:
1- abdominal breathing to store/bring qi to dantien, accumulate enough qi with qigong practices to the next stage
2- start moving qi: xiao zhou tian is the first practice, moving qi around the governor and conception vessels; and finally
3- grand circulation: move qi to the limbs. then one shall be able to emit internal force, after successfully mastering this stage, with specific exercises for fa jin as well.
Christiano
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Re: microcosmi orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:10 pm

Christiano wrote:Well, I only know about what I've read on his books: according to them, to be able to emit jin through the hands, one has to be able to store and circulate qi, so there are stages to get this:
1- abdominal breathing to store/bring qi to dantien, accumulate enough qi with qigong practices to the next stage
2- start moving qi: xiao zhou tian is the first practice, moving qi around the governor and conception vessels; and finally
3- grand circulation: move qi to the limbs. then one shall be able to emit internal force, after successfully mastering this stage, with specific exercises for fa jin as well.


Christiano;
What you have listed are the factoid which has been passed down from century to century. However, that was the best possible description which could be given at the time, macroscopically. BTW I was hoping that you would return with more comments which you did. So, I can respond with more detail on the subject matter.

"1- abdominal breathing to store/bring qi to dantien, accumulate enough qi with qigong practices to the next stage"
This statement was obfuscated with abdominal breathing to store and bring qi to the dantien. The fact that abdominal breathing does bring qi to the dantien but it doesn't store qi in the dantian. When one inhales, qi does go down to the dantian. In the contrary, qi leaves when exhale. Thus it does not store qi in the dantian.

"accumulate enough qi with qigong practices to the next stage"
This statement has the implication that qi can be accumulated with qigong practice which is not true. Indeed, qigong practices to the next stage is correct. Qi is very confusing in the statement. It is because qi was not really defined as neither breath or energy. However, the term abdominal breathing was used here which leads me to believe that qi is the breath. It cannot be defined as energy is because we do not and cannot breathe energy into our body. The energy has to be generated within the body. Hence, it cannot be said that qi was accumulated nor moving qi in the body.

Please keep in mind, I do have scientific facts to back up my comments which I will do in the following posts.



Let nature take its course.
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Re: microcosmic orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby ChiDragon » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:14 pm

abdominal breathing to store/bring qi to dantien, accumulate enough qi with qigong practices to the next stage


I believe most people mention "Abdominal breathing and qigong" at the same time without realizing that they are closely interrelated. They are not two separate entities. It is because that qigong is the ultimate method of breathing; and its ultimate goal is to accomplish abdominal breathing. Even though many people perform abdominal breathing with something else, but the credit was only given partially to breathing and most of the credit was given to something else. However, as long as abdominal breathing was involved, everything will work the way it should. Otherwise, nothing works.

Let's look at the microcosmic orbit. How does abdominal breathing is related to the microcosmic orbit? Well, abdominal breathing is the key to microcosmic orbit. Once thought that moving qi to the dantien is by abdominal breathing. Unfortunately, there are some people cannot perform abdominal breathing. So, they must learn to perform abdominal breathing.

As one mentioned that:
"2- start moving qi: xiao zhou tian is the first practice, moving qi around the governor and conception vessels;....."

In order to moving qi around the governor and conception vessels, one must be able to perform abdominal breathing. The reason is that there is a passage in the meridian loop in between the governor and conception vessels. If the passage was blocked, then, the qi is not able to circulate in the meridian loop. As we all heard this once before, the qi starts to flow from the datian. Thus qi must sink to the datian, in order, to start sending it into orbit. For that being said, if one had learned to perform abdominal breathing, then, it was considered to be one has accomplished the microcosmic orbit. Finally, one is ready to go to the next stage.

TBC.......
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Re: microcosmic orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby ChiDragon » Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:48 am

What is a meridian loop? A meridian loop is formed by two meridians. These meridians are governor(督) and conception(任) vessels(胍). The governor vessel (督胍) is in the back of the torso where the acupoints are connected between the baihui(GV20) and huiyin(CV1). The conception vessel (任胍) in the front of the torso between the same acupoints. The baihui point is on top of the head; and the huiyin is at the bottom of the torso. However, the conception vessel runs through the navel and the huiyin acupoint. Let's imagine that between the navel and huiyin is a passage in the meridian loop. The dantian is located within the passage. That is why the dantian is very critical for qi to flow. In order to sink qi to the dantian, abdominal breathing must be performed. If not, then, it was said to be that the passage was blocked.. Therefore, qi is not able to flow in the meridian loop.

Some people are not able to perform abdominal breathing. Therefore, they must learn to breathe with the abdomen. During the process of practicing the abdominal breathing, it was considered to be practicing the method of microcosmic orbit. As soon one has mastered to breathe with the abdomen, it was said to be qi has been sunk to the dantian or the passage in the meridian loop has been cleared. Literally, this is what the method of microcosmic orbit was all about.
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Re: microcosmic orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby ChiDragon » Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:38 am

3- grand circulation: move qi to the limbs. then one shall be able to emit internal force, after successfully mastering this stage, with specific exercises for fa jin as well.


Now, the governor and conception vessels are connected and ready for the grand circulation. One who continues with the practice of abdominal breathing is considered to be entering to the next stage, the macrocosmic orbit. One is not able to emit internal force at the beginning of the macrocosmic orbit. It takes time and diligent practice to develop the internal energy in the body. The macrocosmic orbit was mainly to enhance the health of the physical body to prolong life. It was the intention of the ancient Taoists to become an immortal.

The notion of the macrocosmic orbit was to circulate qi through all the meridians in the body. It was only the best description for the method, at the time, to acquire longevity by the ancient Taoists. However, in real science, it is the extra oxygen uptake from abdominal breathing to increase the energy level by cell respiration. The extra energy generated in the body will enhance the functions of the internal organs. As result, it invigorates the body to perform the daily tasks more efficient.
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Re: microcosmic orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby Christiano » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:25 pm

Thanks the explanations.
Well, in fact, there are more details on books, it´s not only the "ab breathing" per se, but a combination of use of intention, hui yin coordination, reverse breathing, etc. which leads to abundant chi in lower dantien. it seems that the point is, focusing the mind (use Yi), and movement (in & out of abdominal area) , and breathing patterns (regular, reverse, deep, etc) that combined in long sessions, day by day, that promotes the qi cultivation in lower dantien.
by doing so, one should be able to create this "abundant energy", so it can sink, and then be put in circulation in the specific way of orbit.

anyway, I see some relationship with general tjq principles, mainly with the body requirements (alignment, song ): open the ming men, and facilitates the passage of chi through the back channel, and relaxing chest, so chi can sink again in dantien and close this circuit. What I am trying to mean is, althought there are not specific mention to practice de 'MO', some of the guidelines to tjq are in consonance to the requirements to do it, it´s not its end, but it´s more like a tool.

I really appreciate the feedback, thank you.
Christiano
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Re: microcosmic orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby UniTaichi » Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:00 pm

Hi Christiano,

I am glad that you have done your own research and I can said that you are on the right track. Your OT was dd Oct.18th. 2016. Since then a complete set of Dr.Yang J.M. videos is avaiable on YouTube on Nov. 6th. 2016. You might like to watch them. They are at least 1 and a half hour up to 2+ hour long. A lot of good info there. First video link below ;

https://youtu.be/hdHH8W1aNi8

Happy viewing.

Cheers,
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Re: microcosmic orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby Christiano » Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:16 pm

Yes, in fact, I bought some of his books and the neigong dvd set.
Here there's a brief description of his theory about abdominal breathing and store qi concepts.
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=571

I gonna watch those vídeos again. xié xié
Christiano
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Re: microcosmic orbit - xiao zhou tian

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:54 pm

Christiano wrote:Thanks the explanations.
Well, in fact, there are more details on books, it´s not only the "ab breathing" per se, but a combination of use of intention, hui yin coordination, reverse breathing, etc. which leads to abundant chi in lower dantien. it seems that the point is, focusing the mind (use Yi), and movement (in & out of abdominal area) , and breathing patterns (regular, reverse, deep, etc) that combined in long sessions, day by day, that promotes the qi cultivation in lower dantien.
by doing so, one should be able to create this "abundant energy", so it can sink, and then be put in circulation in the specific way of orbit.

anyway, I see some relationship with general tjq principles, mainly with the body requirements (alignment, song ): open the ming men, and facilitates the passage of chi through the back channel, and relaxing chest, so chi can sink again in dantien and close this circuit. What I am trying to mean is, althought there are not specific mention to practice de 'MO', some of the guidelines to tjq are in consonance to the requirements to do it, it´s not its end, but it´s more like a tool.

I really appreciate the feedback, thank you.

Christiano, You welcome!

My finally word is to put more emphasis on breathing. There could be many combination of things to make it work as long breathing was included. If breathing was excluded in the combination, then nothing works.
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