Push Hands without touching

Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby ChiDragon » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:54 pm

Anyway, I am not trying to convince anyone. Just to let it be known that there are such skill.

Your word is well taken, UniTaiChi! :)

I think the "no touching method" had been existed once in the ancient time. However, I don't think it was used by the Tai Chi practitioners. I believe 聽勁(ting jin), in push hand, is strictly by touching to sense the jin of the opponent.
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby UniTaichi » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:39 am

Hi All,

For anyone who want to get an idea how to feel Qi and how to learn the basic method can visit Dr.Yang video link below ;

https://youtu.be/hdHH8W1aNi8

It is best to watch from beginning to end but the part showing the actual explanation and method/testing are at 1:59:00,
2:13:00 to end.

At 15930 Dr.Yang explained the mind-qi-body and mind-nerve-body connection and feeling.
At 21300 he commented on feeling w/o touching.
At 21316 he commented ''Qi cannot be seen. Only thru feel''
At 21334 he said to train using a partner. (so ph w/o touch is similar except it is martial in content)
At 21400 he was able to feel his partner wrist was tense w/o touching. He said ''don't tense up your wrist''
At 21425 he demo how it is done ****
At 21636 he commented that is can be felt close or far depending on your qi sensitivity cultivation.

Pls take note that these methods are to increased your qi accumulation and train your sensitivity. Dr,Yang teaching is only one of many method teaching these skill.

Cheers,
UniTaichi
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby UniTaichi » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:39 am

Hi All,

https://youtu.be/x71OrrhTSAc?list=FLzrMrLpQmUobhHTjtjPjIdQ

The teacher in this video shows (from his speech) that he is able to read/feel energy w/o touching. The lady in the video is a dancer and is the first time joining the taiji group.She was able to do the energetic skill in their practice because her body alignment is good.

The teacher is a University lecturer and all those in the group are university students are from the same Uni in Singapore. Nanyang Technological University of Singapore.

The teacher's sifu, if I am not wrong, is GM Gao Zhuan Fei of Wu TJQ.

Cheers,
UniTaichi
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby ChiDragon » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:55 pm

Hi, all

The teacher in this video shows (from his speech) that he is able to read/feel energy w/o touching.

I have not heard him saying that he is able to read/feel energy w/o touching. However, at 0:05 he was telling the girl that was the energy from her body.

Here is mmho about the video. The girl dancer has no Tai Chi quan experience. She was asked to do a sitting stance and able to issue jin. The implication was that one may issue jin without diligent practice as long one can do the sitting stance is correct. The teacher said it took him 7 years to do stance right; and he was proud of the girl dancer which she can do it in one day with no fajin experience. For that being said, do we still need to practice Tai Chi diligently for a prolong period to accomplish fa jin?
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby UniTaichi » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:22 pm

Hi CD,

I have not heard him saying that he is able to read/feel energy w/o touching.


Yes, your are right to said that you didn't heard him said. Because I wrote , from his speech, not in his speech.

However, at 0:05 he was telling the girl that was the energy from her body.


Your quote is exactly what I said from his conversation with the girl.

Here is mmho about the video. The girl dancer has no Tai Chi quan experience. She was asked to do a sitting stance and able to issue jin. The implication was that one may issue jin without diligent practice as long one can do the sitting stance is correct?


On the implication, it is your own. Nobody said that.

he teacher said it took him 7 years to do stance right; and he was proud of the girl dancer which she can do it in one day with no fajin experience.


The teacher took 7 yrs to get the stance right, that means now he can do it every time. That means he has put in the time to train it to his present level. In the video, he also commented that one of the student at the practice, took 3 yrs. So I asked you, did you take these data into consideration before asking/stating your question below ??? My view is that you read passed all that and so do not fully understand the post. But you are in good company.

For that being said, do we still need to practice Tai Chi diligently for a prolong period to accomplish fa jin?


The answer is Yes. We need to diligently practice over time to achieved a skill or in this case, even a particular skill set.

One more piece of info you did not get is my comment that the girl was a dancer. I did not put that info for fun, it's data. Dancers are trained body alignment in their dance lessons right from the beginning. Their ''core'' is = to our Dantian. One have to get it right from the very beginning. So she would have, said a couple of yrs of perfected training(like the teacher), which was not taken into consideration. Meaning , she is able to do those skill because she have already a few yrs of similar basic foundation.

On fajin . I would like to ask you what is your opinion and how you compare the one in my post with the 2 you posted on another thread ? Do you think they are the same type of fajin or using same method ? Or are they different, using different method. ? Also can you do the fajin posted in your 2nd video. (1st video cannot play. Good if you can post it again or something similar.)

Cheers,
UniTaichi
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby ChiDragon » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:33 pm

UniTaichi wrote:Hi CD,

The teacher took 7 yrs to get the stance right, that means now he can do it every time. That means he has put in the time to train it to his present level. In the video, he also commented that one of the student at the practice, took 3 yrs. So I asked you, did you take these data into consideration before asking/stating your question below ??? My view is that you read passed all that and so do not fully understand the post. But you are in good company.

One more piece of info you did not get is my comment that the girl was a dancer. I did not put that info for fun, it's data. Dancers are trained body alignment in their dance lessons right from the beginning. Their ''core'' is = to our Dantian. One have to get it right from the very beginning. So she would have, said a couple of yrs of perfected training(like the teacher), which was not taken into consideration. Meaning , she is able to do those skill because she have already a few yrs of similar basic foundation.

On fajin . I would like to ask you what is your opinion and how you compare the one in my post with the 2 you posted on another thread ? Do you think they are the same type of fajin or using same method ? Or are they different, using different method. ? Also can you do the fajin posted in your 2nd video. (1st video cannot play. Good if you can post it again or something similar.)


Cheers,
UniTaichi


Hi, UniTaichi
Okay, fine! I have no problem with the zhan Zhuang(站椿) part, but how did she attain to the fa jin stage was my main concern.

Fa jin(發勁) is an esoteric Tai Chi term. (勁) is the internal strength acquired from prolong practice of Tai Chi Quan. There are eight most effective positions, in Tai Chi, to fa jin. The modern practitioners called the jin as explosive force. To answer your question, there are no difference in method of fa jin. The only difference is the positon which the practitioner was in to have the most effective way to do so.

One cannot just pick someone from the street and perform a certain stance to fa jin. One has to have certain jin in the body to enable the practice. In other words, one who has develop jin in the body in order to fa jin.

I will look into the post in question and come back to you. Thanks!
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby ChiDragon » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:58 pm

Hi, UTC

Here is the eight most effective way of fa jin. Call them methods if you want. I was asked can I do them. I am not perfect. However, if one practice Tai Chi long enough, it will become a natural reflex instantaneously. Of course, with more practice exclusively, in these methods will make it perfect.

Here is one with elaborated explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqjRbJYaG_k

太极八法(棚捋挤按採挒肘靠) with application.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rvvBLe0HPQ
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby UniTaichi » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:59 pm

Hi CD, All,

ChiDragon wrote:Hi, UTC

Here is the eight most effective way of fa jin. Call them methods if you want. I was asked can I do them. I am not perfect. However, if one practice Tai Chi long enough, it will become a natural reflex instantaneously. Of course, with more practice exclusively, in these methods will make it perfect.

Here is one with elaborated explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqjRbJYaG_k

太极八法(棚捋挤按採挒肘靠) with application.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rvvBLe0HPQ


What you have posted above is the way 法 which one express the 8 八 energies 棚捋挤按採挒肘靠 .
These 8 are the main one but can goes up to 25+ or more.

To answer your question, there are no difference in method of fa jin.


Method of fajin means ; the various ways of generating jin in internal TJQ. There are as many as
6 method ( or more level) of generating internal jin.

One cannot just pick someone from the street and perform a certain stance to fa jin.


Yes, it is as perplexing as reading your understanding of taichi Qi is only Breathing and by just doing Ab Breathing somehow can enable one to do the xiao zhao tien and achieve high level taichi kungfu. :wink:

Cheers,
UniTaichi
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby ChiDragon » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:53 pm

UniTaichi wrote:Hi CD, All,
Yes, it is as perplexing as reading your understanding of taichi Qi is only Breathing and by just doing Ab Breathing somehow can enable one to do the xiao zhao tien and achieve high level taichi kungfu. :wink:

Cheers,
UniTaichi


LOL Perplex is right. It took me many many moons to have the pleasure of discovery. If you don't believe in Ab Breathing is the key to achieve high level of Taichi or Kung Fu, then, try without it and see how far can you get. Wish you lots of luck. :wink:
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby Audi » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:57 pm

Greetings all,

Pls take note that these methods are to increased your qi accumulation and train your sensitivity. Dr,Yang teaching is only one of many method teaching these skill.


It seems this skill plays an important role in some Tai Chi methods and is certainly useful if people have success with it. For my part, I don't think focusing on "sensing qi" has played a significant role in my study at any level, nor expect that it ever will. I may or may not do it, but It's not a main ingredient in the "recipe" of what I study nor a major signpost on the path I have been following or expect to follow. To the extent I have been taught about qi or teach about it myself, it is a part of basic practice, not high-level practice. As a part of basic practice, people vary in their ability to use it according to their experience and training, but it should be there at some level almost from the very beginning of practice.

I think the "no touching method" had been existed once in the ancient time. However, I don't think it was used by the Tai Chi practitioners. I believe 聽勁(ting jin), in push hand, is strictly by touching to sense the jin of the opponent.


I think I may agree with the sentiment behind the third sentence, but would prefer to word it differently and not to imply that "touch" is the only sense used. I would say that we practice "listening" mainly through touch, but also secondarily through sight and hearing. With time practicing this method and the help of some other exercises, we also gain an ability to know what to do when the opponent has not yet touched us. I don't think the basics of our method focus much on what happens when no contact is involved or immediately contemplated.

https://youtu.be/x71OrrhTSAc?list=FLzrMrLpQmUobhHTjtjPjIdQ

The teacher in this video shows (from his speech) that he is able to read/feel energy w/o touching. The lady in the video is a dancer and is the first time joining the taiji group.She was able to do the energetic skill in their practice because her body alignment is good.


I am not sure what is being demonstrated with the dancer and do not recognize the skill.

Here is one with elaborated explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqjRbJYaG_k

太极八法(棚捋挤按採挒肘靠) with application.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rvvBLe0HPQ


I do recognize and practice these skills. As in many styles, they are a part of our curriculum.

Fa jin(發勁) is an esoteric Tai Chi term. (勁) is the internal strength acquired from prolong practice of Tai Chi Quan. There are eight most effective positions, in Tai Chi, to fa jin. The modern practitioners called the jin as explosive force. To answer your question, there are no difference in method of fa jin. The only difference is the positon which the practitioner was in to have the most effective way to do so.


My terminology is a little different, but more or less agree with this statement. A few clarifications might help, however.

In one or both of the last two links, one of the Chinese words for method (法) is applied to each of the eight "techniques" demonstrated. In one of them, they also use the Chinese word for strength or force (力) “alone” as 之力 and in combination as 经力. To me, this is just a matter of terminology and emphasis and does not affect the reality of what is being shown. You can talk about one method or eight methods, while taking about the same reality. You can also talk about eight energies or eight types of energetic strength, while referencing the same skills.

For our method of learning, I think it is best to think of Tai Chi energy as one thing, generated in one way, that can be manifested in different ways. For the Eight Energies, the main difference is in how you use the "waist" and how you manifest the energy in your upper body. Here is an excerpt from Louis Swaim's translation of the Song of the Thirteen Postures in Fu Zhongwen's Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan that might help in grounding this idea in the classics.

The thirteen principal postures are not to be underestimated.
The source of meaning is in the region of the waist.

***

For each and every posture, concentrate your mind and consider the meaning of the applications.
You will not get it without consciously expending a great deal of time and effort (gongfu).

***

Moment by moment, keep the mind/heart (xin) on the waist.
With the lower abdomen completely loosened, the qi will ascend on its own.

***

If inquiry proceeds without regard to this,
one's efforts (gongfu) will be wasted, and this will only cause one to sigh with regret.


Interestingly for one of the concurrent threads on "intent" (意), this Chinese character appears five times in this document (including two I did not quote). Louis used four different words to translate it, according to context ("meaning" (twice), "attention,' "intention," and "purpose"). If this document speaks to how you think you need to study as it does to me, this is one concept that would be worth to understand.

Take care,
Audi
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby fchai » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:08 am

Greetings,
I have recently started one of my classes on the practice of tui shou. Being old farts, me included, I emphasise more about rooting, yielding and ting Jin. The reason is rather obvious. Older folks are not really into attack and defense, though I do explain and show how each move in the long form might be used in this fashion martially. However, I do want them to have a stable base (rooting), to yield against any forces that come at them rather than to typically react by countering with an opposite force, with the result that they will possibly get injured. These forces can be animate or inanimate. The use of the waist is an integral part of this with the execution of absorption, dissolving and redirection. The reason I make this contributary input is because too often folks focus excessively on fajin, and only mention the other elements of tui shou as a footnote.

My humble contribution on fajin is just this. A practitioner should have Jin with her/him at all times. Whether they choose to express it is dependent on the circumstances. And it can be against something animate or inanimate. I confess to having a rather simplistic view of matters and try not to confound myself in too much complexity. However, I do appreciate and value the discussions on this forum.

Take care,
Frank
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby global village idiot » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:23 pm

fchai,

I owe you a debt of thanks!

A few weeks ago I sent my ma a handful of xeroxed pages from A Tooth from the Tiger's Mouth, which was recommended to me here. She's a recovering heart-surgery patient and I thought the Eight Brocade "Plus" exercises would be good for her. She's been complaining of an inability to exercise (multiple reasons, not worth elaborating here) and I reckoned these would serve her well.

She's taken to doing them within the limits of her ability, and she's also expressed an interest in learning tai chi for the reasons most seniors do it; unfortunately, there is no convenient class for her and she has no realistic way to get to them (she lives two time zones away, otherwise I'd drive her). I may end up sending her a DVD and a player so she can at least ape the postures and talk to me about how they should feel.

Sadly, that looks like the best I'll be able to do for her.

She has no interest in the martial aspect but the way you put using jin for inanimate objects speaks to one of her objectives in exercise, to wit not falling down.

I'm going to have to re-read your comment a few times to ensure I understand it, but I will certainly share it with her.

Thanks!

gvi
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby ChiDragon » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:41 pm

fchai wrote:Greetings,

My humble contribution on fajin is just this. A practitioner should have Jin with her/him at all times. Whether they choose to express it is dependent on the circumstances. And it can be against something animate or inanimate.

Frank


Greetings! Frank
I am not quite sure what do you mean by that!

CD
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby fchai » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:05 am

Greetings CD,

What I mean is that a Taijiquan practitioner should not just be be marshalling Jin when they are doing the form, tui shou or in preparation for combat, or whatever. My humble opinion is that whether you are walking, running, sitting or even sleeping, you have Jin, so that you are able to express it, fajin, if the circumstances require it. In my humble opinion Jin is never switched off! I am probably not being very articulate on this, but that seems to be the nature of Taijiquan.

Take care,
Frank
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Re: Push Hands without touching

Postby Audi » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:28 pm

Hi Frank and everyone else,

I have recently started one of my classes on the practice of tui shou. Being old farts, me included, I emphasise more about rooting, yielding and ting Jin. The reason is rather obvious. Older folks are not really into attack and defense, though I do explain and show how each move in the long form might be used in this fashion martially. However, I do want them to have a stable base (rooting), to yield against any forces that come at them rather than to typically react by countering with an opposite force, with the result that they will possibly get injured. These forces can be animate or inanimate. The use of the waist is an integral part of this with the execution of absorption, dissolving and redirection. The reason I make this contributary input is because too often folks focus excessively on fajin, and only mention the other elements of tui shou as a footnote.

I have great sympathy for your approach and the thought that everyone can and should practice Tai Chi at their own level and for their own goals.

By temperament, I was turned off by most discussions of fajin early in my study. I particularly did not like discussions that veered into what I considered actions that violated the laws of physics or which seemed to reduce all of Tai Chi into a practice that used special qi techniques to acquire bone splitting power.

On the other hand, some ability to fajin was my first indication that I was beginning to learn something special, and it was also the means by which I made a major breakthrough in my level of skill many years later. I now demonstrate it frequently, but almost always to show some other aspect of practice than the fajin itself. I have given some concentrated practice just to fajin, but find it quite hard on the body, somewhat unpleasant, and fairly boring. I rarely dedicate significant amounts of time specifically to that kind of hard practice, even though I think it is essential at some point to true martial ability. I have taught this only very rarely, since the exercises become counterproductive if done too early in one's Tai Chi journey and involve some level of risk. I do, however, think low-level fajin (i.e., issuing and circulating jin without any explosive manifestation is an essential part of my form practice.

The vast amount of what I teach is Push Hands, rather than form, in my particular situation. I believe most of my students are interested in deepening the Tai Chi knowledge they gain through form practice. Part of this deepening necessarily entails being able to demonstrate some real skill. In other words, can you really Ward Off someone or not? Can you launch them into the air or not?

I also am no "spring chicken" and am way past my physical prime; however, I am still willing to give and take to a certain degree. I think a significant number of my students are nearing or beyond retirement age, and so no one is particular keen on being slammed into a wall or into the ground. And yet, everyone wants to work with real energy and not just go through the motions. In my view, all of our basic circles are safe. Our basic applications can also be done safely, but only if you know and respect the skills of your partner and adjust your level of force or alter your contact points appropriately.

My own teaching style involves a lot of talking paired with a lot of physical practice. I also use physical objects. To explain something like full and empty, Listening Energy, or Adhering, I generally use one of a number of physical counters to demonstrate that there is no way to do the particular counters without paying attention to these concepts. In other words, if A does the application giving full play to the principles involved and B ignores them, A can generally always win. On the other hand, if B does the application without attention to the principles and B respects them, B generally always win. It is not really about level of skill, but about which skills come into play. The physical aspect of the movement is insufficient to achieve the desired result. For these types of scenarios to work, the energy involved does not have to be too fierce, but it does have to be real and not just play acting.

Take care,
Audi
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