A Tai Chi Body!?

Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby ChiDragon » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:45 am

Greetings! Frank
Sorry to hear that you have a severe belly ache. Thank you for your participation in the discussion . Your valuable input has given us many lead ways to talk about Tai Chi, Qigong and Tai Chi Body. BTW This is only the beginning in exchanging ideas in a gross manner. We haven't got to the microscopic view of the subject matter yet!

Let's have a macroscopic view about what is given to us right now. There are ordinary people practice Tai Chi for martial arts. However, the Chinese Taoists practice Tai Chi are mainly for health reasons. Thus, to a Taoist, keeping the body in shape is a must. BTW Practice Tai Chi has better health benefits for the body than other martial arts. It is safe to say that a Tai Chi practitioner has, internal wise, a Tai Chi body. In the cultivation of the body, the jing, chi and shen have alot to do with it.

what is different between Taiji and Qigong?
Taiji and Qigong both are an internal art. Tai Chi is a form of Qigong but Qigong is not a form of Tai Chi. However, both have something in common involves with the slow movements and breathing. Tai Chi does sequential movements while Qigong does the movements randomly. Hence, both practitioners are involved in the cultivation jing, qi and shen as well. Most people just don't realize that Tai Chi is doing the samething as Qigong.

Actually, the philosophy of the Chinese Taoists when doing Tai Chi and Qigong are cultivating three things: cultivate the mind(調心), cultivate the breathing(調息) and cultivate the body(調身). Without realizing while that was going on, the jing, chi and shen are being taken care simultaneously by the internal functions of the body. It is too complicated to explain for now. It should be discussed precisely with more details in the near future.
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby ChiDragon » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:50 pm

fchai wrote:Greetings,
Sorry, I just picked myself up from the floor after a severe belly ache.

Frank

Hi, Frank

Here is a good remedy for severe belly ache. I do this all the time. Place your index and middle fingers press down against the one to two inches area below the navel. You might feel a pulsating sensation at first. The sensation will be diminished when your pain is gone.
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby ChiDragon » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:57 pm

fchai wrote:Greetings,
Sorry, I just picked myself up from the floor after a severe belly ache.

Frank

Hi, Frank

Here is a good remedy for belly ache and diarrhoea. I do this all the time. Place your index and middle fingers press down against the one to two inches area below the navel. You might feel a pulsating sensation at first. The sensation will be diminished when your pain is gone.
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby fchai » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:13 am

Hi CD,

I don't really have a bellyache. It was a tongue in cheek comment. However, thanks for the advice and I may use it when I really have a bellyache. :D

Take care,
Frank
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby ChiDragon » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:56 am

fchai wrote:Hi CD,

I don't really have a bellyache. It was a tongue in cheek comment. However, thanks for the advice and I may use it when I really have a bellyache. :D

Take care,
Frank


Seriously, this trick had helped quite a few hopeless guys who asked for advice online. Especially, for those young guys who had visited the porn sites often. :|


Edited to add:
Come to think of it, I almost had a bellyache too; thanks to Bob's humor. :D
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby ChiDragon » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:40 pm

The following is the modern interpretation of 精(jing):
精(jing) is the fundamental substance which compose the body.


I had read many descriptions about jing. However, these descriptions have only mentioned that 精(jing) are the fundamental substances which compose the body and where jing(s) came from. Unfortunately, what is the basic unit which compose the body has never been defined.

Here is traditional version of the universal description of jing.
精—生命活动的本原及物质基础精,是体内精华物质的总称,是构成生命体,产生并维持生命活动的物质基础。按照不同的划分依据,有不同的名称及类别。依据来源,精先天之精和后天之精。先天之精,禀受于父母,与生俱来,是生命的本原物质。后天之精,源于清气和水谷,化生于肺脾胃,是人出生后赖以生存的物质源泉


(jing) is the original source of all the fundamental substances which responsible for all the vital activities of the body. It is a general term for all the essential substances of the body. It composes the structure of a living body. It produces and maintain the vital substances to sustain life. According to the different distinctive sources, they have different nomenclatures and categories. According the sources, there are prenatal and postnatal jings. Prenatal jings are from the parents by birth. They are the fundamental substances of vitality. The postnatal jings are originated from pure air, water and grains which are processed by the lung, spleen and stomach. They are the dependent sources to sustain life after birth.



Editor's note:
Please note that in the Chinese language, the quantity was always expressed as singular. It is up to the reader to determine it is singular or plural by context. Hence, jing was used as singular and plural in the post.

Ref: http://wenku.baidu.com/view/3484525c804 ... ec0b5.html
Last edited by ChiDragon on Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby Bob Ashmore » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:47 pm

What is the difference between Tai Chi Chuan and Chi Kung?
I've heard that question at least a thousand times.
The answer is not simple, in fact I'd say it's quite complex.

Both, by the by, can and are used in a martial manner, so that old saw is a bit worn out by harsh reality.
I am constantly shocked at how some TCC enthusiasts continue to say, "You can't use Chi Kung martially". OF COURSE YOU CAN!
I usually use one of the eight brocades to show how inaccurate this statement is.
But I digress...

I don't think they're all that different, personally.
There are those who would say that Tai Chi Chuan uses sets of forms that are constantly flowing from one energy to the next while Chi Kung uses more fixed energy postures.
In other words, TCC goes through all the energies in a continuously recycling state while CK focuses more on one (actually two if you consider the balance) at a time, stops, then moves on to the next one.
At first it seems that way, but then look a bit deeper and that one goes out the airlock as well.
I've seen Chi Kung "sets" performed that show that is not actually the case. More than likely these are done at higher levels and the "flow" is incorporated there.
I have never trained CK to what could be even remotely considered a "high level" so... Not sure on that one.
But I've personally witnessed these flowing CK sets being performed, so that "difference" more than likely is at the lower level of that art and once you go beyond that it's fairly well the same.

So what ARE the differences then...?
Well...
Let's move past that for a minute and look at it another way.
By asking yet more questions...
What are the differences between Tai Chi Chuan and Xing Yi?
What are the differences between Tai Chi Chuan and Bagua?
How about Li Ha Ba Fa?

Hmmmm......
This is getting more complicated now, isn't it?
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby ChiDragon » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:04 pm

I am constantly shocked at how some TCC enthusiasts continue to say, "You can't use Chi Kung martially". OF COURSE YOU CAN!
I usually use one of the eight brocades to show how inaccurate this statement is.
But I digress...

There are many method of Chi Kung from the simplest to the most complicated.
The eight brocades method happens to be one of the simplest Chi Kung exercise for health purpose only. It involves breathing exercise and slow movements as well. However, it has no martial value for self defence.

There are more complicated forms of Chi Kung that can be accomplished to have the same effect as Tai Chi Quan does.
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby fchai » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:55 am

Hi Bob,
IMHO you are right but also quite wrong. Lol. Sounds familiar? The Eight Section Brocade qigong form was developed by Marshal Yue Fei in the 12th century to improve the vitality of his soldiers. As to be expected some movements in his qigong drill include some martial elements, possibly of Shaolin origins. If fact, this qigong form is still used by Shaolin practitioners. However, its function was not so much martial as physical and perhaps mental conditioning. Qigong forms do not include martial components such as neutralize, defend, counter and attack. Qigong movements are specific to cleansing and stimulating the meridians and hence to cultivate jing, qi and shen. When I practice the qigong forms, my favorites being the Eight Section Brocade, Yang Sheng and Lotus Breathing forms, my emphasis is on jing, qi and shen. When I practice my Taiji forms, be they the long form, fast form, weapons or push hands, the aspects of jin and the Ten Essential Principles enter the equation.
BTW I also practice a Baguazhang form and this form has a very different feel to the Yang Taiji Long Form. A lot of ‘whole of body’ circular movements and done at a quicker pace than I would do my long form. I have unconsciously used the circular turn in push hands practice and it can be quite surprising to your partner. If they have never seen Baguazhang they kinda wonder what just happened. Something worth further exploration. Never done Xing Yi but I understand that it is more ‘direct’.
Take care,
Frank
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby ChiDragon » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:16 pm

What is considered to be a Tai Chi body?
It is a body which had developed jin in the muscles from prolong Tai Chi Practice.
It is a body which can generate a tremendous amount of energy perpetually.
It is a body doesn't get fatigued too quickly.
It is a body which can react swiftly to adverse situations.
It is a body which has a high immune system.
It is a body which able to perform abdominal breathing, the ultimate method of breathing(UMB).
Last edited by ChiDragon on Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby yslim » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:51 pm

ChiDragon wrote:What is considered to be a Tai Chi body?
It is a body which had developed jin in the muscles from prolong Tai Chi Practice.
It is a body which can generate a tremendous amount of energy perpetually.
It is a body doesn't get fatigued too quickly.
It is a body which can react swiftly to adverse situations.

What is considered to be a Taiji body? Is a "no body". 无形无相才是真有形有相皆是假
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby ChiDragon » Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:41 am

精(jing) is the original source of all the fundamental substances which responsible for all the vital activities of the body. It is a general term for all the essential substances of the body. It composes the structure of a living body. It produces and maintain the vital substances to sustain life. According to the different distinctive sources, they have different nomenclatures and categories. According the sources, there are prenatal and postnatal jings. Prenatal jings are from the parents by birth. They are the fundamental substances of vitality. The postnatal jings are originated from pure air, water and grains which are processed by the lung, spleen and stomach. They are the dependent sources to sustain life after birth.


Based on the description, here, it only describe what is in the body but never say what really makes up the body. IMO the ancients had no idea that the body cells have ever existed at the time. At this point in time, I think we need to borrow some terms from modern science to help us to understand jing better.

Well, from the notebook of the ancients, the prenatal jing was originated from our patents. When the child is inside the womb, all the nourishments were feed inside the mother's body.

So, how would we relate that the prenatal jings to the parents? What we had learnt from modern science is that a fetus was formed by an egg cell and sperm cell. If the ancient said that the prenatal jings are from the parents, then, the egg and sperm cells have to be them. They are the fundamental substances of vitality. Hence, we can say that the human body was made up of body cells. The life of the body was sustain by the postnatal jings. When the child is inside the womb, all the nourishments were came from the foods that the mother ate; the water that she drinks; the oxygen from the air that she breathes. Indeed, the pure air, water and grains are the postnatal substances which sustain the life of a body is a valid ancient statement. It is still valid even after the birth of a body.

The most important substances to sustain life are the nourishments and air. The former can be stored in the body to survive for awhile. However, the latter is not as feasible to be stored for a long time. It is because the rate of consumption of oxygen is much faster than the food to generate the body energy. The ancient Taoists had taken the fact into a serious consideration by learning how to breathe better. They had come up with the ultimate method of breathing to invigorate the body and prolong life by cultivate the three treasures of the body, jin, chi and shen.

@yslim
A body is comprised of the prenatal jing(s). Thus a body has a form. 有精有氣便有形,有神有氣便更真
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby yslim » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:41 am

ChiDragon wrote:
精(jing) is the original source of all the fundamental substances which responsible for all the vital activities of the body. It is a general term for all the essential substances of the body. It composes the structure of a living body. It produces and maintain the vital substances to sustain life. According to the different distinctive sources, they have different nomenclatures and categories. According the sources, there are prenatal and postnatal jings. Prenatal jings are from the parents by birth. They are the fundamental substances of vitality. The postnatal jings are originated from pure air, water and grains which are processed by the lung, spleen and stomach. They are the dependent sources to sustain life after birth.


Based on the description, here, it only describe what is in the body but never say what really makes up the body. IMO the ancients had no idea that the body cells have ever existed at the time. At this point in time, I think we need to borrow some terms from modern science to help us to understand jing better.

Well, from the notebook of the ancients, the prenatal jing was originated from our patents. When the child is inside the womb, all the nourishments were feed inside the mother's body.

So, how would we relate that the prenatal jings to the parents? What we had learnt from modern science is that a fetus was formed by an egg cell and sperm cell. If the ancient said that the prenatal jings are from the parents, then, the egg and sperm cells have to be them. They are the fundamental substances of vitality. Hence, we can say that the human body was made up of body cells. The life of the body was sustain by the postnatal jings. When the child is inside the womb, all the nourishments were came from the foods that the mother ate; the water that she drinks; the oxygen from the air that she breathes. Indeed, the pure air, water and grains are the postnatal substances which sustain the life of a body is a valid ancient statement. It is still valid even after the birth of a body.

The most important substances to sustain life are the nourishments and air. The former can be stored in the body to survive for awhile. However, the latter is not as feasible to be stored for a long time. It is because the rate of consumption of oxygen is much faster than the food to generate the body energy. The ancient Taoists had taken the fact into a serious consideration by learning how to breathe better. They had come up with the ultimate method of breathing to invigorate the body and prolong life by cultivate the three treasures of the body, jin, chi and shen.

@yslim
A body is comprised of the prenatal jing(s). Thus a body has a form. 有精有氣便有形,有神有氣便更真


Good Morning CD. Ahh... I think I drank too much "Woo-Lung(Grey Dragon) tea"! (my head is in the shade of grey, all mixed up)

Since we all on the "Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board" discussing Tai Chi and I assume the context is Tai Chi Chuan, the Martial Art. I didn't realize I was on a slow boat to the wrong Tai Chi until I got a whiff of this "jing" and baby poop stuff, I recognized definitely I was dancing to the wrong music. Because if for Martial art one should just go kick ass until one of the the body is "out-of-order". In our Tai Chi Chuan training; What is considered to be a Taiji body? Is a "no body". 无形无相才是真有形有相皆是假 This apply when upon contact other can not find my " true center" and or a " real body" to land his force.(for me to give my opponent a "no body" experience, I must able to maintain a "Pure Yi" AND NO MIXED, to-do-nothing-to-resist!)

Your remark "@yslim
A body is comprised of the prenatal jing(s). Thus a body has a form. [b][color=#0000BF]有精有氣便有形,有神有氣便更真A body is comprised of the prenatal jing(s).".... With this CD, Keep your music to tangle with other. Sorry about that.
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby ChiDragon » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:53 pm

yslim wrote:What is considered to be a Taiji body? Is a "no body". 无形无相才是真有形有相皆是假 This apply when upon contact other can not find my " true center" and or a " real body" to land his force.(for me to give my opponent a "no body" experience, I must able to maintain a "Pure Yi" AND NO MIXED, to-do-nothing-to-resist!)

A body is comprised of the prenatal jing(s).".... With this CD, Keep your music to tangle with other. Sorry about that.


Good morning, yslim!
I know what you are saying. In order for you "to give my opponent a "no body" experience, This apply when upon contact other can not find my " true center" and or a " real body" to land his force"

Isn't your "real body" has to be trained, from Tai Chi, to be invisible to the opponent? Isn't your "real body" was referred as a "Tai Chi body" to begin with? If your thoughts are locked on that Tai Chi is a martial art, then, your "real body" will not be as effective from your training due to your eagerness to be a good fighter. 好自為之!
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Re: A Tai Chi Body!?

Postby yslim » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:06 pm

ChiDragon wrote:Good morning, yslim!
I know what you are saying. In order for you "to give my opponent a "no body" experience, This applies when upon contact other can not find my " true center" and or a " real body" to land his force"



Isn't your "real body" has to be trained, from Tai Chi, to be invisible to the opponent?
Absolutely.

Isn't your "real body" was referred as a "Tai Chi body" to begin with?
Absolutely

If your thoughts are locked on that Tai Chi is a martial art,
This is a mixed of 'yes' and 'no'. To be clear, The 'No' is that our thought is not "locked on that Tai Chi is a martial art." Our thought is to train to be free from Martial art aspect and our "awareness" acknowledged that the Tai Chi Chuan is a martial art. My lovey and I train Tai Chi for the true "side-effect-health-benefit" through the way of martial art. So Yes, "Tai Chi is a martial art".

then, your "real body" will not be as effective from your training
'Yes', you are right on this. If I "locked on...." then I can't change with change.

due to your eagerness to be a good fighter.
A 'No' on this. That is why Martha and I don't practice the Push Hand in TCC . We only practice to drill the Tai Chi Principle into the Form of TCC to heal each other and enjoy health as its best

好自為之!
Thank you for your kindness

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