Forward Sinking and Rooting

Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby DPasek » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:58 pm

As I stated, my knowledge is insufficient – I can only speculate.

As mentioned in the article, I think that we train to use the slow twitch (stabilizer) muscles to support our structure. This type of muscle uses less energy (less ATP), and we would then be using less energy to support our bodies. It should be more efficient and less tiring if we use slow twitch muscles for our pengjin and we could then feel relatively more energetic. This could be why Taijquan players are able to stand in zhan zhuang longer than many bodybuilders are able to, even though the bodybuilder has more muscle mass. Properly trained, it could be perceived as “not using muscles” when we are actually using different, more efficient, muscles than someone who is untrained. When bodybuilders tire quickly when standing, it is perceived that they are “using muscles” because they suffer from muscle fatigue. Tradition attributes this efficient standing to jin or qi, but I suspect it is just the efficiency of the muscles being used.
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:46 pm

Greetings!
A Tai Chi body can generate more energy than it can consume. Thus the body does not have to reserve energy. Besides, the generated ATP energy in the body will be gone in few seconds until the next generation. The muscles have to be contracted, in order, to generate energy by a command signal called the "action potential." This signal was issued by the brain.

BTW The pengjin(掤勁) is issued by the arms. It has nothing to do with the leg muscles as in Zhan Zhuang. It is not a matter of which muscle to be used. It is how much jin in the muscle that can be issued. In fact, the muscle fatigue was caused by hypoxia. It was because the glucose turns into lactic acid(lack of oxygen) to cause muscle fatigue and pain. A Tai Chi body has turned most muscles into twitch muscles from prolong practice. Therefore, the muscles in a Tai Chi body will not be fatigue too quickly.

Jin(勁) is something has to be developed in the muscles. It is not a prenatal feature which one might think.
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby DPasek » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:16 pm

ChiDragon wrote:A Tai Chi body can generate more energy than it can consume. Thus the body does not have to reserve energy.

Sorry, I do not understand this. Could you provide some evidence to support your claims? Do you no longer need to eat food or breath air?

ChiDragon wrote:BTW The pengjin(掤勁) is issued by the arms. It has nothing to do with the leg muscles...

Our understanding of pengjin is different. To me pengjin is everywhere. If you only issue pengjin with your arms, are you saying that all of the rest of your body stays stationary when issuing pengjin with only your arms? I would consider that to be wrong.

I do not think that Taijiquan practice can “turn most muscles into [slow] twitch muscles.” Again, this seems like unsubstantiated wishful thinking that is self-delusion, not reality.

To me, what you have written in your post has no realistic meaning.
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:27 pm

DPasek wrote:
ChiDragon wrote:A Tai Chi body can generate more energy than it can consume. Thus the body does not have to reserve energy.

Sorry, I do not understand this. Could you provide some evidence to support your claims? Do you no longer need to eat food or breath air?

CD: What I am saying was the bioenergy ATP cannot be reserved but only generated by the cell resiperation. The biochemical energy ATP only last for few seconds then vanish. Until the next breath comes in with oxygen to decompose the glucose to release the ATP again. Of course, we have to eat food and breathe. They are the postnatal jings which have to sustain the prenatal jings. Remember?


ChiDragon wrote:BTW The pengjin(掤勁) is issued by the arms. It has nothing to do with the leg muscles...

Our understanding of pengjin is different. To me pengjin is everywhere. If you only issue pengjin with your arms, are you saying that all of the rest of your body stays stationary when issuing pengjin with only your arms? I would consider that to be wrong.

CD:
Here is the definition of (掤勁):
掤在手臂
Peng(jin) is in the arm.
是八勁之本
It is the root of the eight basic explosive forces.
是向上向外之力
The force is issued upward and outward.
使對方之力达不到胸部
Its application is to prevent the force of the opponent from reaching the chest.

Please note that 力(li) was understood as 勁 or 勁力(jin or jin li) since we are talking about Fajin here.

Ref: Fajin viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4197&start=30


I do not think that Taijiquan practice can “turn most muscles into [slow] twitch muscles.” Again, this seems like unsubstantiated wishful thinking that is self-delusion, not reality.
CD: Perhaps, you haven't reached the basic goal of Tai Chi Chuan yet.

To me, what you have written in your post has no realistic meaning.
CD: I can tolerate that. It will be meaningful if one had felt the developed jin the muscles. It cannot be described by words but has to be by self intuition. I hope you will see that happen someday. No offence! Peace!
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby DPasek » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:52 pm

If anyone is interested, the following is briefly the logic that I used for my previous post.

• CD stated: “A Tai Chi body can generate more energy than it can consume. Thus the body does not have to reserve energy.”
• Modern understanding tells us that we derive our body’s energy from the food we eat and the air we breathe.
• If “A Tai Chi body can generate more energy than it can consume. Thus the body does not have to reserve energy.”, then a Taiji body should not need any additional energy to replace what is normally consumed during life activities.
• Since Taiji practitioners DO still need to eat and breathe, the premise from CD is likely incorrect.

Despite the above, we all know that someone can FEEL more energetic at times. However, this FEELING does NOT mean that we are actually creating energy reserves in the body. The mind’s perception does not necessarily match reality.

We can FEEL more energized after a nap, after a good laugh, after practicing Taijiquan, etc., but modern science indicates that we are still using calories during these activities. We even use energy (burn calories) when sleeping.

CD quoted the following to support his position:
Here is the definition of (掤勁):
掤在手臂
Peng(jin) is in the arm.
是八勁之本
It is the root of the eight basic explosive forces.
是向上向外之力
The force is issued upward and outward.
使對方之力达不到胸部
Its application is to prevent the force of the opponent from reaching the chest.


My brief analysis would be as follows:
• It is stated that “Peng(jin) is in the arms” as well as “It is the root of the eight basic explosive forces.”
• If, as CD interprets this, “The pengjin(掤勁) is issued by the arms. It has nothing to do with the leg muscles...” then kaojin must use the arms since pengjin is the root of kaojin.
• Kaojin does not use the arms.
• Therefore CD’s interpretation is likely incorrect.

Or, since CD stated that “It has nothing to do with the leg muscles...” it would imply that the legs (and body) should stay stationary during pengjin. I consider this to be incorrect and be counter to the idea that when one part moves all parts move.

I would interpret the text that CD quoted as saying that pengjin is in the arms in the SPECIFIC example being demonstrated. It is only ONE example of the use of this energy, and should not be assumed as a definition of the energy. For pengjin to be the root of all 8 basic energies, it must be in more places of the body than just in the arms.

These are just my interpretations; readers can apply their own logical analysis to the statements.
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:19 pm

Greetings!
I woke up this morning think about the people here has different notions about fajin. It seems to me that someone has no idea what jin is all about then start talking about fajin. IMMHO I think we should understand what jin is all about before going into fajin. Therefore, can anyone give a good description to spell out what jin is all about?
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby DPasek » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:18 pm

I really like the following article:
http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Jin/TJ_Jin1.html
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:21 pm

The article has a long description about the application of li and jin; but it didn't explain how does jin was acquired.
In your own words, how do you acquire the jin in your body?
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:00 pm

DPasek wrote:My brief analysis would be as follows:
• It is stated that “Peng(jin) is in the arms” as well as “It is the root of the eight basic explosive forces.”
• If, as CD interprets this, “The pengjin(掤勁) is issued by the arms. It has nothing to do with the leg muscles...” then kaojin must use the arms since pengjin is the root of kaojin.
• Kaojin does not use the arms.
• Therefore CD’s interpretation is likely incorrect.


“Peng(jin) is in the arms” as well as “It is the root of the eight basic explosive forces.”
The "root" simply means that Peng(jin) is the head of the eight basic explosive forces to begin with. It means that the rest of the jin(s) were developed after the Peng(jin).

Kao(jin) was used the shoulder, chest or back to fajin to push the opponent away. Thus it has nothing to do with the arms. In the same token, Peng(jin) was used the arms to push the opponent. Thus it has nothing to do with the legs.

FYI Each method of fajin was articulated in a particular part of the body. It happens to be that the Peng(jin) is in the arms rather than all over the body.

Am I correct?
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby yslim » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:16 pm

ChiDragon wrote:
DPasek wrote:My brief analysis would be as follows:
• It is stated that “Peng(jin) is in the arms” as well as “It is the root of the eight basic explosive forces.”
• If, as CD interprets this, “The pengjin(掤勁) is issued by the arms. It has nothing to do with the leg muscles...” then kaojin must use the arms since pengjin is the root of kaojin.
• Kaojin does not use the arms.
• Therefore CD’s interpretation is likely incorrect.


“Peng(jin) is in the arms” as well as “It is the root of the eight basic explosive forces.”
The "root" simply means that Peng(jin) is the head of the eight basic explosive forces to begin with. It means that the rest of the jin(s) were developed after the Peng(jin).
It is mixed, not clear and may not work asTCC.
Kao(jin) was used the shoulder, chest or back to fajin to push the opponent away. Thus it has nothing to do with the arms. In the same token, Peng(jin) was used the arms to push the opponent. Thus it has nothing to do with the legs.
It also mixed, not clear and may not work as TCC
FYI Each method of fajin was articulated in a particular part of the body. It happens to be that the Peng(jin) is in the arms rather than all over the body.
It too also mixed, not clear may not as TCC.
Am I correct?
No, as TCC.
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:32 pm

Greeting! yslim
Are you a practitioner of Tai Chi Chuan? If yes, how long have you been practicing it?
Do you read Chinese at all.....???
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby Audi » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:59 am

Greetings all,

I really like the following article:
http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Jin/TJ_Jin1.html


I think that is a good article as well. I especially like the definitions of jin and li, the separation between external and internal, and the emphasis on quality rather than quantity of power.

I also like Grand Master Yang Zhenduo’s analogy at this link during a discussion of "relaxation":

http://yangfamilytaichi.com/articles/fang-song/

(Note that some of the English translations in the article do not use standard pinyin. The character for “energy” that is referred to (劲) is more commonly transliterated nowadays as “jin” rather than as “jing.” Also, “coarse strength” (浊力) would be “zhuo li” rather than “juo li.”)

The one place in Zhang Yun’s article that felt strange to me was when he seemed to divide up Tai Chi skills into external and internal. For us, I think it is better to think of all Tai Chi skills as having an external and an internal component. For instance, we say that when you fajin, there is normally an external energy path from foot to finger, but an internal energy path from dantian to energy point. We wouldn't think of fajin as being simply external in the same way as the strikes of external arts are external, although that was probably not Zhang Yun's intent in classifying fajin as external.

Take care,
Audi
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby DPasek » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:24 pm

ChiDragon wrote:The article has a long description about the application of li and jin; but it didn't explain how does jin was acquired. In your own words, how do you acquire the jin in your body?

ChiDragon wrote:Are you a practitioner of Tai Chi Chuan? If yes, how long have you been practicing it?
Do you read Chinese at all.....???

CD,

Now you are turning to trolling? Trolling is bad internet etiquette. Trolling does not deserve responses.

If you cannot support your positions without resorting to questioning if someone practices Taijiquan or reads Chinese, or requesting them to state something in their own words so that you can troll for something that you can try to use against them, etc., then that is likely a symptom of the weakness of the position that you are advocating, or your lack of ability to convincingly convey your thoughts. When arguments are too week to be able to support, then the interchange of ideas can turn into personal attacks.

If you want to find something that I wrote in my own words to criticize me with, then my posted articles currently contain almost 20,000 words. If those words are not enough, then I expect it to total over 30,000 words by the end of this year. That is in addition to the posts that I have made on this forum.

My articles and posts represent my understanding from my training. Those with deductive reasoning abilities should be able to get an idea of my training from what my writing contains. Most of what I write concerns understanding training, and how those learned skills are used with training partners or opponents. I tend to focus my articles on things that are not well addressed elsewhere, that I am aware of, or on subjects where my perspective seems to differ from common approaches.

Training to obtain jin in the body is indirectly addressed in my articles that have already been posted. Those who are interested should read the articles on moving through molasses, six direction forces, and others.

I think that Zhang’s article represents my understanding of Taijiquan jin quite well; therefore there is no reason for me to write my own version of the topic. If you do not like, or disagree with, something that Zhang wrote, then you should address his writing directly rather than requesting me to express similar information in my own words so that you can feel more comfortable criticizing me instead!

Please do not be a troll!
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:57 pm

ChiDragon wrote:Greeting! yslim
Are you a practitioner of Tai Chi Chuan? If yes, how long have you been practicing it?
Do you read Chinese at all.....???


Greetings!
DPasek...

This was addressed to yslim. I knew that he knows Chinese. By his response to fajin, it indicates to me that he has not reached to that stage yet. I was hoping he would read the native source to get a better understanding. No trolling was intended.

The reason I want everyone to describe in their own words is to see if our understanding are consistent. No trolling was intended. If it had turned out that way, I apologize! I'll be careful with my words in the future. Peace!

Sometimes, it is not easy to understand what one wants to say. If I asked a simple question, then someone ask me to read a book to find the answer. It would be quite difficult for me to do so. No?
CD
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:38 pm

Greetings to all,
This is a discussion forum, it would be nice if we can agree with all the things that we are saying here. Somehow, it is impossible due to everyone is from a different background. It is inevitable not to have any criticism. If criticisms are not allowed in the forum, then, how are we going to learn from each other? Besides, we are adults, why should we treat a little criticism as trolling? If we have a valid reason to fulfil the requirement of the argument, then, why should we shy away from it? If it happens to be that I was incorrect, I'm sure to make a mental note of that and update my data bank. Indeed, I shall not take any criticism as an insult.



Wu Wei,
Let nature take its course!
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