Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby DPasek » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:33 pm

Yes, the principle is to avoid the error (disease/sickness) of “double weighting.” As I understand it, one can have the error of “double weighting” at any point of the body, and while this can be in the legs, e.g. when the legs are extended too far apart, it can also occur in the body at any time, not JUST when the legs are extended too far apart. One can suffer from “double weighting” even when standing in a single leg stance with the other leg suspended in the air. If you understand the concept too narrowly, then you run the risk of not being aware of occurrences of the “disease/sickness” in other situations. If you think that the error is not occurring in the legs, but fail to recognize the error in other places in the body, then you will still have the “disease/sickness” even without realizing it.
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:11 am

DPasek wrote:..... One can suffer from “double weighting” even when standing in a single leg stance with the other leg suspended in the air.

If you understand the concept too narrowly, then you run the risk of not being aware of occurrences of the “disease/sickness” in other situations. If you think that the error is not occurring in the legs, but fail to recognize the error in other places in the body, then you will still have the “disease/sickness” even without realizing it.


I do understand the narrow part. However, I cannot link the “double weighting” to a single leg stance.
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby DPasek » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:28 pm

To me, it is because "double weighting" can occur at any point in the body; at any point of contact (e.g. even the little finger). I tried to explain this in the following article:
http://slantedflying.com/be-the-ball/
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:08 pm

Most people become double weighted when they stand on one leg.
Think about it, when most people stand on only one leg can they respond to incoming energy without even a split second of not being able to move freely?
That would be a... No.
So... Yeah. That's going to be true for at least most of the people who practice TCC.
The sickness of double weighting is one that is often spoken about but rarely understood.
Obviously!

That said...
I can stand with my feet spread pretty far apart in most stances, even horse stance, and still not be double weighted in its actual meaning.
Because I have trained for a LONG time to make that so.
There's a limit to it, obviously, but if your hips are loose and you remain Sung you can respond without hesitation in stances that are fairly wide. Everyone has a different range for this, so "wide apart" is a term relative to each of us.
The reverse is true, I can stand in fairly narrow stances and still not be double weighted.
Again, there's a limit to that. I can't stand with my feet pressed together side by side and not be double weighted, however even a very small opening allows me to round the kua and avoid this sickness.
It's all a matter of training.
If you train for it, you will be able to do this.
If you don't...
Can I stand on one foot and not be double weighted?
Depends on the circumstances.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
I'm not good yet, I need more practice.
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby Louis Swaim » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:17 pm

ChiDragon wrote:"Double weighted(DW)" was never considered as a principle of Tai Chi Quan but it was referred as a disease. As I was saying, the original idea of DW was derived from the legs being extended too far apart which disable the ability to move freely. Then, the idea of DW was applied in describing the other parts of the body when fallen into the same disable situation.


Hi CD,

Do you have evidence for this statement about the original meaning of 雙重?

I've never seen anything that supports this interpretation.

Take care,
Louis
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby Louis Swaim » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:33 pm

Greetings Bob,

Re: "Most people become double weighted when they stand on one leg.
Think about it, when most people stand on only one leg can they respond to incoming energy without even a split second of not being able to move freely?"

That's right, with regard to "most people." I once saw Master Sam Tam do single-hand push hands with an opponent while he was standing on one leg -- the other leg raised up as in Golden Cock Stands on One Leg. Not only did he absorb the incoming energy, he launched his opponent while still on one leg.

Louis
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:36 pm

Louis Swaim wrote:Hi CD,

Do you have evidence for this statement about the original meaning of 雙重?

I've never seen anything that supports this interpretation.

Take care,
Louis


Hi, Louis
The following article is a good start but it's all in Chinese. It should fine for you! :)
從古代先賢到近代大師,以及當代拳家,都十分重視避免太極拳訓練中腳下出現的雙重之病。......

"From the ancients to the present masters, and the modern martial artists had paid lots of attention to prevent the "double weighted" disease under the feet....."

http://blog.xuite.net/jjtaigi/twblog12/ ... 7%E5%BF%8C
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:14 pm

Bob Ashmore wrote:....
The sickness of double weighting is one that is often spoken about but rarely understood.
Obviously!

That said...
I can stand with my feet spread pretty far apart in most stances, even horse stance, and still not be double weighted in its actual meaning.
Because I have trained for a LONG time to make that so.
There's a limit to it, obviously, but if your hips are loose and you remain Sung you can respond without hesitation in stances that are fairly wide.
Everyone has a different range for this, so "wide apart" is a term relative to each of us.
The reverse is true, I can stand in fairly narrow stances and still not be double weighted.
Again, there's a limit to that. I can't stand with my feet pressed together side by side and not be double weighted, however even a very small opening allows me to round the kua and avoid this sickness.
It's all a matter of training.
If you train for it, you will be able to do this.
If you don't...
Can I stand on one foot and not be double weighted?
Depends on the circumstances.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
I'm not good yet, I need more practice.


Hi, Bob
Under those conditions highlighted in red, are you able to lift up anyone of your legs at any time. If not, then, you are "double-weighted."

The highlighted in blue:
If the suspended leg is stiff but not sung(松), then, according to the modern definition of "double-weighted", you are in violation of DW.
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:24 pm

I am unclear how being unable to lift one leg off the ground equals being double weighted.
In all my time in this art I've never seen that listed as one of the symptoms of the sickness.
You do not have to lift one leg off the ground to respond to incoming energy or to be able to send it out. We do this all the time so I'm always confused when someone believes this to be true.
Are we double weighted during Opening? Or During Cross Hands? How about during the Wu Chien Chuan posture Single Whip?
Because if being able to lift one leg off the ground is the criteria for the sickness, than we're sick every time we perform those postures or use their applications. We are required to keep both feet firmly planted on the ground when we do those and lifting one leg would totally destroy our foundation which, in point of fact, would by itself make us double weighted.
I've shown this so many times and to so many people, and discussed it so often on this very forum, that I am always surprised now when I hear it again.

To be clear...
Keeping both feet on the ground is in absolutely no way analogous to being double weighted!
If that were so, how could I be double weighted in a single finger?
Which leg on my finger do I lift to prove that it's not double weighted? Oh, wait... Whoops! Fingers don't have legs!
Clearly lifting one leg, or the ability to do so, does not make one not be double weighted.
The ability to differentiate empty and full, which allows me to respond instantly and correctly to incoming OR outgoing energy, is the opposite of being double weighted not being able to lift a leg off the ground.
Rant ended.

In that respect I can not be double weighted (the WCC school I attended used "single weighted" as the opposing word set for double weighted, however I've been schooled numerous times that outside of that school there is no such thing as being single weighted, so I keep typing it but then I have to remember to go back and change it to "not double weighted" or something similar, but I digress...) and still have both feet equally and firmly planted on the ground.
Because differentiating empty and full is not done in those postures side to side, but up to down. "Double empty, double full" is the designation for this and the meets the criteria to not show the sickness of being double weighted very nicely.
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby Louis Swaim » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:33 pm

Hi CD,

Re: Under those conditions highlighted in red, are you able to lift up anyone of your legs at any time. If not, then, you are "double-weighted."

I don't agree that the conditions described constitute instances of double weighing. To say that in a particular instant you cannot lift one of your legs does not mean that you cannot respond to the pressure of an opponent by moving. By the way, there are countless instances in push hands and in the form where the weight is equally distributed between the two feet, for example while transitioning from a rear-weighted stance to a front-weighted stance or vice-versa, or as one moves from right to left in Cloud Hands, or moving through Snake Creeps Down to Golden Cock Stands on One Leg, and so on. The mere fact of having the weight distributed equally between the two feet (even for an instant) does not necessarily entail being double weighted. For a seasoned practitioner, that will not be the case.

Louis
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:40 pm

Hi Bob and Louis

"Double-weighted" is a very complicated subject. We cannot just sum it up in a short post. We must consider one issue at a time before bring in another.

Bob Ashmore wrote:In that respect I can not be double weighted (the WCC school I attended used "single weighted" as the opposing word set for double weighted, however I've been schooled numerous times that outside of that school there is no such thing as being single weighted,

I can stand with my feet spread pretty far apart in most stances, even horse stance, and still not be double weighted in its actual meaning.

@ Bob
You are not wrong. There is such a term as "single weighted(單重)" in the native source.

BTW There is a difference in applying the "double weighted" between a single person and two persons. Let's start with a single person. It is not so important that a single person can defend oneself with the arms or not. So to speak, please don't take it too serious yet.

If a person cannot lift up one of the legs, at anytime, when the weights are equally distributed in both legs. It would be difficult for one to move freely. The former is not considered to be "double weighted" but the latter is. I hope I have made this clear and that is the way we have understood.

A person cannot move the legs freely which means one has been limited oneself to have the mobility to react to adverse situations. Hence, It was considered to be a disease in Tai Chi Quan.

Louis Swaim wrote: By the way, there are countless instances in push hands and in the form where the weight is equally distributed between the two feet, for example while transitioning from a rear-weighted stance to a front-weighted stance or vice-versa, or as one moves from right to left in Cloud Hands, or moving through Snake Creeps Down to Golden Cock Stands on One Leg, and so on. The mere fact of having the weight distributed equally between the two feet (even for an instant) does not necessarily entail being double weighted. For a seasoned practitioner, that will not be the case.


@Louis
Yes, I do aware of these transitions which are not considered to be "double-weighted." Here is one of the native sources also listed cloud hands(雲手) and cross hands(十字手) as example of not "double-weighted."

這裏先要說明一點,“雙重”不能理解 爲重心在兩個腿上的均勻
分擔,比如“雲手”橫向移動中的馬步、“十字手”的雙腿立起,甚
至任何運動虛實轉換都要有一個重心均布的瞬間,這些都不在雙重之
列。
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby yslim » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:01 pm

ChiDragon wrote:Hi Bob and Louis


這裏先要說明一點,“雙重”不能理解 爲重心在兩個腿上的均勻
分擔,比如“雲手”橫向移動中的馬步、“十字手”的雙腿立起,甚
至任何運動虛實轉換都要有一個重心均布的瞬間,這些都不在雙重之
列。
[/color]


Good Morning CD,
Now you are cooking with something! Only if you can understanding this native source clearly and translate it into our time.
Then I can answer your favor "Am I correct?" or not. I will give you a "heads-up; have yin ,have yang, must have zhong".
the secret lies in "circle with center"
yslim
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:44 pm

We all know I am NOT a linguist, but I've seen this particular phrase before and have seen several translations of it.
Unfortunately, each translation has been different. Similar, but...
That's how it seems to go with that kind of thing.
Translators rely on their knowledge of both languages in question and then use their knowledge of both cultures to determine the best way to make it understandable by the end user. Each persons knowledge and understanding is unique to them so each time a different person translates something you get a different perspective on it.
Anywho...

As I understand this from glomming together several of those translations:
It is important to point out that holding weight equally in both legs is not considered "double weighted".
Postures such as Cloud Hands and Cross hands hold the weight equally in both legs, so movements such as these are not "double weighted".

I'm sure I will now get hammered on about how horrible that translation is.
If so, go back and reread my initial disclaimer regarding my abilities at translation.
Then remember that I did not make this one, I simply took what I liked from several that I have seen previously and tossed them together into something I could understand.

Moving on...
I don't know what kind of martial training any of you have had in TCC, but I had a fairly in depth level of training in the "We will throw you to the floor, punch you, kick you, and it will hurt if you screw up" kind.
So I can tell you from first hand, been there, done that, bought the T-shirt but earned the bruises, experience that there are times when you simply do NOT want the ability to raise one foot off the ground right now.
Simply considering even the most basic martial applications for Cross Hands ought to be a fairly good indicator as to WHY that would happen.
If you're not training TCC for martial purposes, then have yourself a time with your own personal view on this as you're not very likely to get kicked in the crotch when, not if, you're proven wrong.
I know what works, repeatedly and demonstrably, when someone is trying to kick straight on into my primary target, so I'll hold to mine.
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby ChiDragon » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:11 pm

Bob Ashmore wrote:I'm sure I will now get hammered on about how horrible that translation is.
If so, go back and reread my initial disclaimer regarding my abilities at translation.
Then remember that I did not make this one, I simply took what I liked from several that I have seen previously and tossed them together into something I could understand.

CD: Hi, Bob
You won't get hammered on this one is because the translation is correct as others had indicated. The reason is that the "double weighted" condition is inevitable during the transition of some movements. Thsu they don't count as a disease.


Moving on...
.....I can tell you from first hand, been there, done that, bought the T-shirt but earned the bruises, experience that there are times when you simply do NOT want the ability to raise one foot off the ground right now.

Let stay away from the martial aspect for a minute. Once a while, there is a time that you have to defend your balance. Let's assume that you are in a horse stand position. Unfortunately, someone had pushed you in the front accidentally. Your body tends to fall on your back. By natural instinct, your first reaction is the lift up one leg and step back to a bow stance to keep in balance. In the worst case, if you were in the "double weighted" position, then you would have had been fallen flat on your back. Finally, the whole idea about abling to lift one leg, at anytime, is to have the mobility to maintain the body in balance at all times by all means. In combat, "double weighted" is very vulnerable for one to lose balance and the ability to react to any adversity.
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Re: Jin- starts in the feet YZD

Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:06 pm

CD,
That sounds like a martial scenario to me but... OK, sure, let's go with it being an accident.
If am standing in horse stance, weighted 50/50, and someone accidentally pushed me from the front, stepping back would not be my first instinct most of the time.
Instead I would turn my waist, accept, redirect (with said turning), and neutralize any residual energy to my root.
I might shift my pole to one side or the other at the same time, might not. That would depend on where the push was coming from and where it was going to.
In the same situation except someone was accidently making a swift kick to my groin from in front of me, I would most definitely not step.
I would perform Cross Hands and use double empty/double full to accept, redirect (using my waist like a whip and lifting), and neutralize any residual energy to my root.

Being double weighted means not being able to respond, it does not mean not being able to step.
You can respond in many ways other than stepping and still use correct TCC methods.
Stepping is one method and is just as TCC correct.
But there are many, many other methods that can be used that do not require stepping.
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