Forward Sinking and Rooting

Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby DPasek » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:45 pm

If what I perceived as trolling was not your intent, then I’m sorry for my accusation. Carry on with the discussion.
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:38 pm

Parkallen wrote:Sinking is typically considered a straight downwards energy, and the related concept of rooting is associated downwards but with some emphasis on the back leg. Basically my point is that sinking and rooting is typically applied to incoming force, but recently I have been applying it to pulling force (as applied to me). When your push hands partner pulls on you, we can sink into the front leg and dantian, making it very hard for your opponent to pull you forward. In the past, I avoided this kind of sinking because I associated it with resistance, but lately I've been more open to seeing what forward sinking can do as long as I am using a genuine sinking energy to do so.

I must say it is quite effective, and was wondering if others had experimented with this, and what their thoughts are on it.


Hi, Parkallen
Now, we have cleared some unpleasant issues and come to a mutual understanding. It's time to move on. Despite to my comment about pulling in push hands in the previous post. I would like to come back and to pay my contribution to your comment about sinking and rooting.

In the past, I avoided this kind of sinking because I associated it with resistance, but lately I've been more open to seeing what forward sinking can do as long as I am using a genuine sinking energy to do so.

I would like address the issue in twofold. It is either your internal strength has increased drastically or your partner is much weaker than you.

Sinking in the front leg requires the center to be off is because the body weight is shifted forward. It is aiding the pulling force. That was why you were associated with resistance, in the past, as you have stated, unless your partner is weaker than you. Under a normal circumstance, one would shift the weight toward the rear and anchored the body by the rooting of the back leg; and using the front leg as the support member of the force in the oblique direction. As result, it has a greater resistance to counteract the forward pull by your partner.
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby yslim » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:09 am

ChiDragon wrote:
ChiDragon wrote:Greeting! yslim
Are you a practitioner of Tai Chi Chuan? If yes, how long have you been practicing it?
Do you read Chinese at all.....???


Greetings!
DPasek...

This was addressed to yslim. I knew that he knows Chinese. By his response to fajin, it indicates to me that he has not reached to that stage yet. I was hoping he would read the native source to get a better understanding. No trolling was intended.

The reason I want everyone to describe in their own words is to see if our understanding are consistent. No trolling was intended. If it had turned out that way, I apologize! I'll be careful with my words in the future. Peace!

Sometimes, it is not easy to understand what one wants to say. If I asked a simple question, then someone ask me to read a book to find the answer. It would be quite difficult for me to do so. No?
CD


Good Morning CD,
I’m so sorry for not replying to this post and causing this misunderstanding. I felt I was not up to par to answer such heavy weight question. I took the path of a old Chinese proverb; “He who knows himself a fool, is not a great fool”, could save my hide. So I “Weighted twice and speak none”.
(三十六着, 走为上着) That is why I didn’t reply.

Here is the reason I was hesitant to reply as I was not that important to fly my ego high.

1, Are you a practitioner of Tai Chi Chuan?
This sounded like; I needed a yes and no reply, it depends on your interpretation what is in Tai Chi Chuan and how you spell it. We only practice Taijiquan for health. I couldn’t claim I could kick your ass with Tai Chi Chuan, so I behaved accordingly.

2, If yes, how long have you been practicing it?
Since I only practice for health, this sounds like; “no matter how long I practiced” it is still not up to your level in Tai Chi Chuan. It may not be enough to satisfy your ego.

3, Do you read Chinese at all.....???[/quote]
This sounds like; your ”Yi-body English” is telling me you already knew that I can read a little-bit-but-not-enough of Chinese.So why you asked? Your usage of “at all” as it seem will “push” you past the “half line” of yin and yang, and since you don’t seem to believe there is a “pull” to support a “push” that could keeps you balanced in the middle/“neutral line”. Therefore you might become a free game for other to be pick on.

But if you ask me“Do you read Chinese?” without“at all” .
My answer shall be a “no”, because I hate to read, period.

If you asked
“Can you read Chinese? My reaction would be different. Because I learn in Taiji Principle, and in you posts, one must be precise “ cause and effect” ( If one missteps a fraction in the beginning, at the end it will be miles apart). But since you have no awareness what is “intend” and what is “attention” in your question, I just let the wind take care of it.

But your post was so comical, it helps me maintain 50% yang and 50% yin forever changing in neutral, as Taiji’s way taught me that it is so "cool" practice to play the middle and stay warm. Not too hot and not too cold and practice Taiji for health as I go...

Sorry about that DPasek, and thank you for the way you are. Thank you CD for a second chance to let me stand on my soap box.
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby fchai » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:58 am

DPasek wrote:I really like the following article:
http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Jin/TJ_Jin1.html

Greetings DP,

Nice article. Pretty much captures my understanding of jin. Much appreciated.

Take care,
Frank
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby DPasek » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:00 pm

ChiDragon wrote:FYI Each method of fajin was articulated in a particular part of the body. It happens to be that the Peng(jin) is in the arms rather than all over the body.

Am I correct?

CD,

Your understanding is so far from mine that I doubt that we could come anywhere close to agreement. For example, I have been taught peng-lu-ji-an using the knee with ones front knee touching a training partner’s front knee, and interacting during weight shifting and turning. Your interpretation seems to be far too narrowly focused to be able to define the energies of knee-to-knee contact.

While we could agree about the energy of the specific example that the person that you quoted presents as an example of pengjin, our understanding applied to different situations seems to be incompatible.

I think that the torso (kaojin) can express peng, lu, ji, and an, just like the knee can be used for peng, lu, ji, and an in the training exercise mentioned above.

Since we seem to be so far apart in the way that we understand these energies, I do not know how I could continue discussing this topic with you. From my perspective, you are NOT correct.
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:25 pm

Without delving too deeply into the current topic...
I will simply say that I have been taught that you can express any energy with any body part at any time.
That does not mean that only local jins are used in TCC, in fact quite the opposite.
What that means is that we clearly have and utilize local jins, but we add all the local jins together and use them as a whole body energy, rather than just expressing them as a single local jin.
We combine the energies from all of our body parts so that they combine into one cohesive, whole body force that we use and express at one time.
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:43 pm

Bob Ashmore wrote:.....I will simply say that I have been taught that you can express any energy with any body part at any time. That does not mean that only local jins are used in TCC, in fact quite the opposite.
What that means is that we clearly have and utilize local jins, but we add all the local jins together and use them as a whole body energy, rather than just expressing them as a single local jin.
We combine the energies from all of our body parts so that they combine into one cohesive, whole body force that we use and express at one time.


Hi Bob and DPasek

I cannot agree more with that. The Tai Chi principle is when one moves, the whole body moves as an ocean wave(動如海). However, when we are talking about fajin, we are interested which part of the body is most effective for the initial parry. The Tai Chi masters had defined eight most effective methods of fajin. Each was emphasized in using the arms, palm, the back of the hands, the waist, fingers, forearms, elbow, shoulder, chest and the back. During the execution of any one of these methods, the whole body moves was to enhance the effectiveness of that particular part of the body. Therefore, it is safe to say that moving the rest of the body was only a cosmetic aid for the local jin.
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:15 am

yslim wrote:2, If yes, how long have you been practicing it?
Since I only practice for health, this sounds like; “no matter how long I practiced” it is still not up to your level in Tai Chi Chuan. It may not be enough to satisfy your ego.


Hi, yslim
Yes, it does matter how long you have been practicing. It determines the amount of jin(勁) in your body. Jin will justify do you have a Tai Chi body or not. Thus the more jin in you, the healthier you are. All the credit was given to jin for the accomplishment from Tai Chi practice.


CD
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:05 pm

I don't think it's "safe" to say that moving the rest of the body is cosmetic aid, at all.
In fact I think that's the least correct thing I've ever heard put forth about the subject.
Let's review the very first line from the TCC Classics that most of us learned to see why:

Energy is rooted in the feet, generated by the legs, controlled by the waist, and expressed in the arms/hands/fingers.

From this it should become clear that for this direction of energy flow along the ground path, the one when we create and use our own energy (there are two directions for energy to travel along the ground path, this is the one that gets most of the lip service though), local energy is the least important part of the entire process. In either direction energy is traveling along the ground path this would still be totally incorrect.
Local jin has to be acknowledged, they do exist and we do use them so to do otherwise would be foolish and counter productive, but ONLY in the context of combining them into whole body energy.
Using local jin, and ONLY local jin, is quite possibly the worst mistake that could be made by anyone practicing TCC.

Perhaps we're talking past each other on this.
It happens all the time on a text based forum. We have no tonal inflection, facial expression, or body language to use to imply or convey deeper meaning, so actual meanings of a post are misconstrued constantly.
Perhaps you're wording this differently enough from what I normally read that I am not understanding your point.
I'd like to think so.
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:36 pm

I don't think it's "safe" to say that moving the rest of the body is cosmetic aid, at all.

Hi, Bob
What I meant by local jin is using a particular part of the body to fajin. For instance, I use my shoulder as Kao which is the primary part of my body to fajin. In order to carry out the execution effectively, I need the other secondary parts of the body to help me to do so. Thus that's what I meant by "moving the rest of the body is cosmetic aid."
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:51 pm

So...
Why are you limiting yourself in this way?
I koa, or bump, my opponents all the time using my feet, my calves, my knees, my thighs, my hips, my torso, my elbows, my hands, my head...
Oh, yeah, and my shoulders too. Once in a while I do use those as well.
You do know that just because it is called Kao that doesn't mean that you do that ONLY by using your "shoulder", right?

Oh, and why do you call issuing energy "fajin" every time you mention it?
You do know that it's possible to use the jins without fa'ing them, right?
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:00 pm

Bob Ashmore wrote:So...
Why are you limiting yourself in this way?
I koa, or bump, my opponents all the time using my feet, my calves, my knees, my thighs, my hips, my torso, my elbows, my hands, my head...
Oh, yeah, and my shoulders too. Once in a while I do use those as well.
You do know that just because it is called Kao that doesn't mean that you do that ONLY by using your "shoulder", right?

Oh, and why do you call issuing energy "fajin" every time you mention it?
You do know that it's possible to use the jins without fa'ing them, right?


Okay, Bob.
I guess your definition is different from the native source. The execution of koa() is either using the shoulder, chest or the back to bump off the opponent.

Fajin means issuing the explosive force from different part of the body. That is what it means to the native Tai Chi practitioners.

No, you cannot use jin without fa'ing them. That is why they call it fajin. Let me ask you this, what do you call it when you use jin without fa'ing?
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby yslim » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:18 am

ChiDragon wrote:No, you cannot use jin without fa'ing them. That is why they call it fajin. Let me ask you this, what do you call it when you use jin without fa'ing?


Good Morning CD,
When I use jin without fa'ing, it is call 暗 勁/conceal jin. The fa'ing one is call 明勁/mingjin. I practice both in a slow motion as I do my form. While I was doing the form slowly every now and then it build up an urges I needed to fa'ing it in conceal fashion.Only my lovey (also Taiji partner) knows what it is when it happen. It make the whole body feel good if I hit it right, like all practice does
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:41 pm

CD,

What if you are not in contact with your opponent with your shoulder, torso, or chest, and still need to bump them?
Do you simply not do it?
Or, do you do it with whichever body part you happen to currently have in contact or can make come in contact when you need it to?
Once again, any and all jins can be expressed by any and all body parts at all times, so the answer is... (you can do it, I have faith)
Yes, the PRIMARY way to deliver koa jin to an opponent is to use the shoulder. But that is not always going to be possible, is it?
It takes me about one second to demonstrate how effectively koa, or any other energy for that matter, can be delivered through the feet, calves,knees, thighs... anywhere... when I'm there with someone and can actually do it. Unfortunately that is not the case here on the interwebs.
I am, frankly, a bit amazed at the lack of understanding of this concept.
Perhaps I got lucky in having access to simply some of the best TCC teachers in the world early on in my training, which would explain why I don't understand why others don't know, or know but can't do, these kinds of things.

I call them jins. They each have names of their own and there are simply thousands of them that we use.
And we rarely ever fa when we use any of them.
You do realize that "fa" isn't a jin? It's a descriptive term for one way to use any of the myriad jins.
Fajin simply means "exploding", so putting it in front of jin is simply saying to you're using a forceful expression of any jin but it is not a jin in its own right.
So any jin can be fa'd, but there are literally an infinite number of ways other than fa'ing them to use the jins.
Do you "explode" a jin every single time you use one?
I don't. I sometimes use extremely subtle, nearly undectable expression of jins. No idea what that's called in Chinese though, as that kind of thing doesn't get much press.
Think about Ting Jin, listening energy. How forceful do you have to be during the use of that jin? Do you explode your listening energy into your opponent every single time you touch with them? Or do you touch lightly, without using force?
If the latter, as I suspect, then you're not fa'ing that jin at that time.
Or Chan Si Jin, silk reeling energy? Do you think that ramming it straight down your opponents throat is going to be the best option every single time you use that particular type of energy? Probably not.
Fa'in jin is probably the least utilized skill in the TCC arsenal. Which is why I am always surprised at how frequently sought out it is by almost everyone.

Bob
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Re: Forward Sinking and Rooting

Postby ChiDragon » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:08 pm

yslim wrote:
ChiDragon wrote:No, you cannot use jin without fa'ing them. That is why they call it fajin. Let me ask you this, what do you call it when you use jin without fa'ing?


Good Morning CD,
When I use jin without fa'ing, it is call 暗 勁/conceal jin. The fa'ing one is call 明勁/mingjin. I practice both in a slow motion as I do my form. While I was doing the form slowly every now and then it build up an urges I needed to fa'ing it in conceal fashion.Only my lovey (also Taiji partner) knows what it is when it happen. It make the whole body feel good if I hit it right, like all practice does
yslim


Good morning! yslim
I was surprised that you did not call them 陰勁 and 陽勁 for 暗 勁 and 明勁, respectively. :)

Congratulations! I'm glad that you have reached a point you do feel the inside the body. When you practice both in slow motion which is a good indication that you know how to execute them. The 陰勁 that you were feeling is the jin acquired from practice which indicates that your body had a biological change. What that means you have felt much stronger than before. It is because your li(力) had been transformed into jin(勁). In other words, hereinafter, when you fali(發力) actually you are fajin 發勁. BTW The difference between 陰勁 and 陽勁 is one is unintentional and the other is intentional, respectively.

@ Bob
Please pay attention to this post too; and I will respond to your post when I come back from my morning practice. It would be an interesting one to be discussed. I am so glad that you are participating in the dialogue to give me such a pleasure to express myself in this profound subject.
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