Fajin

Re: Fajin

Postby ChiDragon » Wed May 10, 2017 4:50 pm

I thought the scientific method is to prove a hypothesis is true then become a theory. Hence, a theory is a proving fact.

PS
Stupidity is one who start attacking the issue before listening to all the evidence of the presentation .
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Re: Fajin

Postby DPasek » Wed May 10, 2017 7:16 pm

Peer-reviewed (refereed or scholarly) journals - Articles are written by experts and are reviewed by several other experts in the field before the article is published in the journal in order to insure the article's quality.

To be scientific, you need to research as many peer-reviewed articles as you can find that may be relevant. You cannot just dismiss anything that does not seem to support your views. The discrepancies MUST be addressed! Theories can be offered that may explain any discrepancies, but these articles are peer-reviewed for merit by experts unconnected with the lab that performed the research; they should be considered as having quality merit until additional research confirms or contradicts them.

Included in peer-reviewed articles are the protocols used; this allows for comparisons, allows other researchers to try replicating the experiments to confirm or refute the conclusions, etc. If you have a problem with their conclusions, then you MUST provide a reasonable explanation, based on sound science, as to why. You may need to modify your “hypothesis” in order to account for any discrepancies found, but you CANNOT just ignore, or dismiss without cause, relevant scientific research! Failing to account for relevant scientific research results means that YOUR statements and conclusions are no longer scientific [they become pseudoscience].

I realize that you cannot conduct your own experiments, but as comprehensive a review of existing SCIENTIFIC research as possible should be done (not just simplified summary articles written for the general public). Otherwise your statements would be merely speculation (of however poor quality), NOT science.

While your initial ideas (which could be formulated into testable hypotheses) were OK, your subsequent “research” appears to completely disregard current scientific research literature. This step is so badly lacking that your posts become meritless.

If you do not understand science, the scientific method, scientific hypotheses, peer-review, pseudoscience, etc., then search the web until you find enough information to be able to understand. If you do not understand why some scientific paper draws conclusions that differ from what you expected, then you need to do more research into additional scientific research papers until you are able to understand why.

Personally, I doubt that you are capable of the above, but it would be great if you were able to surprise me. Listening to pseudo-scientific “evidence” that is abominably researched WOULD be stupid!
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Re: Fajin

Postby ChiDragon » Wed May 10, 2017 8:06 pm

In the meantime, I shall not tie my hands and do nothing to make myself understand how does the body makes its energy. BTW I know you will deny and defy anything I said. So what; but why you even bother to write your post so long to tell me how stupid I am. You could have spent all that time by going through the contents and make yourself more understood. Or don't bother to read it at all to waste your time.

Please let me be stupid. Thanks! :D
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Re: Fajin

Postby DPasek » Wed May 10, 2017 8:26 pm

I post in reply to you because I feel that you are doing a disservice to Taijiquan practitioners when you post speculative pseudo-science as if you were well informed on the topic. While the initial premise was worth looking into, a simple search to check if what you were presenting was accurate gave me articles (on the first page of the search results!) that called into question your statements. Your failure to address these research articles compounded the problem. Your unfounded dismissal of expert peer-reviewed research was, to me, unforgivable.

Your poor research and understanding is the problem. Whether or not I agree with you is irrelevant; although I do seriously doubt your idea based on the preliminary information that I found. Just search for the truth – then it would not matter what I think [I am just asking for truth!].
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Re: Fajin

Postby yslim » Wed May 10, 2017 8:49 pm

ChiDragon wrote:

Please let me be stupid. Thanks! :D


Good Morning CD
The truth of your own words will set you free and you 're welcome! :D
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Re: Fajin

Postby yslim » Wed May 10, 2017 9:23 pm

ChiDragon wrote:PS
Stupidity is one who start attacking the issue before listening to all the evidence of the presentation .


Good Morning CD,
BUT, all your presentations of the evidence were your 'monkey-mind'.

For exampe when you posted this: "the whole body moves as an ocean wave(動如海)."

I cannot agree more with that. "The Tai Chi principle is when one moves, the whole body moves as an ocean wave(動如海)." (動=moves, 如=as, 海=ocean. The fact is, there is no 'wave', only your alt-fact.) if you had stop here, and rid of “wave”, which you added on trying to be smart. Then I cannot agree more with that. But by adding this word “wave” to show you have the intention to emphasize your point of view when there is no “wave” in this 3 Chinese Classic saying. Thou, lack of attention to what the Ancient one actually said. This makes your point of view, blocking your view to the view-of-the-Ancient One. Precisely this “ocean” was a whole body of ocean and the "ocean wave" is the residue of the ocean movement. Why do you want to down size a whole body ocean's might to just an ocean wave?
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Re: Fajin

Postby ChiDragon » Wed May 10, 2017 9:25 pm

DPasek wrote:Since I am a Biochemist, I do have some familiarity with ATP.....

If CD wants to propose that ATP may have something to do with jin in Taijiquan, he would need to find some supporting information. As far as I can tell at this time, increasing the ATP levels in cells would make little difference in muscle strength or fatigue. See for example the following study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253504/

Okay, let me get into this. Using supplements to increase the ATP level is only a small amount for a short time. That is why it doesn't have much effect in the muscle strength, power output, and endurance as compared to Tai Ji breathing. The Tai ji abdominal breathing produce more of ATP energy than the body can consume. It has something the to do with the extra 250 to 300 ml of air from the breathing method. I will present it in the mitochondria thread.
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Re: Fajin

Postby ChiDragon » Wed May 10, 2017 9:28 pm

yslim wrote:Good Morning CD
The truth of your own words will set you free and you 're welcome! :D
yslim,

Can you tell when is morning or afternoon...... :D
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Re: Fajin

Postby yslim » Wed May 10, 2017 9:57 pm

ChiDragon wrote:
yslim wrote:Good Morning CD
The truth of your own words will set you free and you 're welcome! :D
yslim,

Can you tell when is morning or afternoon...... :D


Good Morning CD,
The fact is I can only live in the moment of "here and now". Every new moment as God sends my way is a new moment of my day like a brand new morning. In my power of now I can bug you, isn't that nice?
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Re: Fajin

Postby DPasek » Thu May 11, 2017 3:27 pm

CD,

Sigh, of course you still do not understand.

You made similar assertions previously. They are no better supported now than they were then.
ChiDragon wrote:Using supplements to increase the ATP level is only a small amount for a short time. That is why it doesn't have much effect in the muscle strength, power output, and endurance as compared to Tai Ji breathing.
Citations needed: e.g. you should show that experiments are conducted outside of the effective time of the supplement’s effects (drug half-life...). Although unreliable, the preliminary results of the study on qigong masters showed that their blood ATP levels returned to normal (the tested level prior to their qigong practice session) levels within a half hour after their practice ended (this is probably SHORTER than the effects of a supplement!). It appears likely that what you THINK should be true is actually the OPPOSITE of what may actually be true.

ChiDragon wrote:The Tai ji abdominal breathing produce more of ATP energy than the body can consume.
Citations needed.

In your short post you have so many claims that could be erroneous, that I do not have the time to point them all out.

Your credibility is so poor that you need to provide citations to scientific research literature that supports your claims. Otherwise you are just stating what you THINK should be true, without knowing if it is actually supported by experimental evidence.

Do the literature searches of scientific experiments, and provide the citations!

It is common in scientific research to obtain unexpected results. That is why experimental results are necessary to test a specialist’s ideas (hypotheses). You are not even a specialist – how can we expect your untested ideas to be accurate? You need to provide citations to experiments conducted by specialists, preferably in peer-reviewed publications!
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Re: Fajin

Postby ChiDragon » Thu May 11, 2017 5:22 pm

DPasek,
The experiment was conducted a Tai Chi or Qigong body is not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is the progression of energy level from a non Tai Chi body to a Tai Chi body after practice for a long time. You just can't wait for me to finish my presentation and still attacking the issue. Please be patience and don't jump the gun. Thanks!
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Re: Fajin

Postby DPasek » Thu May 11, 2017 8:49 pm

ChiDragon wrote:DPasek,
The experiment was conducted a Tai Chi or Qigong body is not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is the progression of energy level from a non Tai Chi body to a Tai Chi body after practice for a long time. You just can't wait for me to finish my presentation and still attacking the issue. Please be patience and don't jump the gun. Thanks!

You do not want me to respond to inaccurate information when you post it? You want me wait until you have finished presenting additional inaccurate information?

I have been trying to point out that the ideas may be worth looking into, but that you are doing a miserable job of it. Your approach is unscientific – if all that you want from this is some unscientific speculation, then fine. But don’t try to pass it off as anything other than pseudo-science. You have started numerous threads addressing this line of thought, and made numerous posts, yet I have seen nothing but myth building being passed off as science!

And the sun moves around a flat Earth – but wait, you didn’t let me finish – a rabbit on the moon pounds the elixir of immortality, and...!
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Re: Fajin

Postby ChiDragon » Sat May 13, 2017 9:30 am

DPasek,
You said that you do practice abdominal breathing. How often and when do you practice it?
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Re: Fajin

Postby fchai » Sat May 13, 2017 12:35 pm

Hi CD,
You seem to often imply that someone is not a true Taiji practitioner whereas you, without need of justification, are! Please show some courtesy without casting aspersions on their proficiency or dedication. I see this discussion forum as a vehicle to gain and share knowledge. However, it is not a forum to promote one's own personal beliefs where there are very dubious facts, and very little credible evidence, to support these beliefs. There is a big difference between a discussion and a dissertation!
In case you would also like to know if I practice abdominal breathing, I actually don't. In fact, I don't breathe any other way. Ergo, I don't practice, I do it all the time. So, if you only do abdominal breathing only when you practice, I would ask, Why? So the question posed to DPasek seems sarcastic or even arrogant.
Take care,
Frank
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Re: Fajin

Postby ChiDragon » Sat May 13, 2017 4:12 pm

fchai wrote:Hi CD,
.........In case you would also like to know if I practice abdominal breathing, I actually don't. In fact, I don't breathe any other way. Ergo, I don't practice, I do it all the time. So, if you only do abdominal breathing only when you practice, I would ask, Why? So the question posed to DPasek seems sarcastic or even arrogant.
Take care,
Frank

Hi, Frank
There is an old Chinese proverb 見仁見智(The meaning is only up to the interpretation of the reader.) People do have different views about something that they read. One can take it negatively or positively. I am not being sarcastic or even arrogant. I am only probing what is in his mind. I was hoping he would give me the same answer as you did. However, I would like to hear it from him. Sorry, the message was never come across clearly to me but he was too busy denying what I have been saying.

What I am presenting here is very common in the Chinese literature. It seems to me there is a big controversy from what I am encountering here. I am regret that I don't see the same philosophy in the west. I had cited some good examples; but it seems to be meaningless to some practitioners. Sigh!

Talking about endurance. There is physical endurance and mental endurance. Someone had called me stupid. I took it as someone is entitle to one's opinion and let it go at that. Regardless who is right or wrong, why not just let the person speak, then, attack the issue until to the end. Somehow, it was not in this case. The messenger was killed before the message was delivered. Who is going to defend the messenger?
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