Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenger

Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenger

Postby mls_72 » Tue May 02, 2017 6:32 pm

If you have not seen this on other martial arts forums, it has gone viral all over Facebook Martial arts forums especially in regards to Tai chi.

https://youtu.be/l0p9c56pkbs

Xu Xiaodong issued a challenge to "fake" Chinese martial artists as well as Tai Chi masters as ineffective martial arts cause he thinks they have unrealistic martial arts. He is speaking in particular to teachers who can best their students, issue force "fajin" on their students to have this pass as real gong fu and fighting skill. Xu Xiaodong studied Chinese martial arts, Sanda, and MMa including boxing.

Wei Lei (from the Sichuan lineage of Yang master Li Yuan xia) accepted the challenge. In a previous documentary, Wei Lei can be seen demonstrating strikes and grappling moves on his student. Was he able to do this against a real fighter with real resistance and pressure? No! he was dismantled ina matter of 10- 12 seconds by Xu in the video clip.

This should serve as a wake up call to chinese martial artists, especially those martial artists serious about developing 'Taiji gongfu" and fighting skills like San shou, San da, Da shou. It also shows that tui shou is not a means to an end in real fighting and self defense situations. With all the false advertising going on in Tai chi like a teacher tossing a student up in the air with pushes, or making youtube videos on how to beat boxers using Tai chi, hopely the Tai chi masters will wise up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYmesm9qb-Y

Currently Xu has issued challenges to Chen village masters who do demos of beating strong men and holding back 20 people pushing on them. Chen Zhenlei has asked the Wushu association to put a stop to Xu, but hopefully Xu, as many people believe, is doing a service to those living in the illusion of special "magical" fighting skills that come with Tai Chi form and push hands training.
Last edited by mls_72 on Thu May 04, 2017 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby ChiDragon » Wed May 03, 2017 9:08 am

Here is a real Tai Chi body(white pants) at work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHA9waDt88A
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby mls_72 » Thu May 04, 2017 9:09 pm

That was a much better fight chidragon.

Update:

Just released by the Chinese Wushu Association in response to Xu. Translation:
Chinese Wushu Association sends this note to all provincial, local/municipal associations, saying such fights are against Martial Virtue, against the law, and hence firmly opposes them. Then there is blur about how it want CMA to develop in a healthy manner, and will soon release guide lines to stop this "chaos", and normalize it. All localChinese Wushu Associations should take up measures to put an end to such events in the future.

Image

Was looking forward to more fights and see who was up it. The latest was he was going to fight a Sanda student of a Chen master:

Guan Nan Wang, April 30 at 12:29 pm wrote:
Alright, new development today, Xu did a live stream talk discussing his thought on the Wang Zhanjun fight, I've included the video below, but its in Chinese for those who can understand, else you can read my rough translation.

Yesterday Wang Zhanjun decided to send his top "disciple" Han Feilong to fight Xu, and the disciple part is in "" because this guy isn't really trained by Wang himself, but by sanda coach hired by Wang.

Xu made a live stream today replying to Wang's decision, he basically said that his doubt is with whether or not Chen village Taichi can fight, he never doubted whether or not Sanda can fight, so sending this Han who is a professional sanda athlete, does not prove anything against the argument at hand.

Xu can agree to fight Wang's student, but then to be fair Wang must fight Xu's student which is young professional athlete also. If Wang is too scared to fight Xu's student, then Wang should come and fight Xu himself, if he send only his sanda athlete, Xu will also send forth his own sanda or mma athlete.

If Wang agrees to fight Xu himself, then Xu will fight Wang Zhanjun and Wang Zhanhai one after another, each 10 min round no break, no rules, eyes, groin all game, and Xu wont even wear groin guard to be fair. If Xu loses then Xu will knee down and apologize to Wang, if Wang loses then Xu doesn't need him to do anything extra.

Xu also said there is nothing wrong with Chen village teaching Sanda, but everyone with a brain knows that is not why Chen village is famous, ppl don pay a fortune to go there and learn Sanda, they go there to learn "magic", Chen village is actively promoting this "magic" idea, but when put to the test they reply on Sanda, this in itself is fraud.

Just as a side note, the starting price for a Baishi ceremony under any of the Chen 4 warriors is around 200k RMB, I'm pretty sure nobody pays that amount of money so they can learn average Sanda. Now you can understand why Xu got a problem with the whole Chen village setup.

And after the Xu vs Wei Lei fight, tons of ppl criticize Xu for bullying a older person, but the fact is Wei Lei is only 4 years older than Xu, Wei at 41 and Xu at 37, neither one of them is in their prime as far as age goes. Now the funny thing is while ppl are criticizing Xu for that, this Han Feilong that Wang sent is only 21 years old, now you see the irony?
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby fchai » Fri May 05, 2017 1:02 am

Sorry, if someone really thinks that the guy in white pants in the video posted by CD is using Taiji in the bout, a pink elephant with polka dots just flew past my window. Lol. The guy is using a mixture of techniques including quite obviously, taekwondo.
I also think that too many folks promote too fantastical a capability to their martial arts, seemingly believing what they see in Kung Fu cinematic flicks. That some gullible folks are drawn into such a belief is truly sad!
Take care,
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby ChiDragon » Fri May 05, 2017 8:23 am

ChiDragon wrote:Here is a real Tai Chi body(white pants) at work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHA9waDt88A

Hi, Frank
Have you notice that I have said a real Tai Chi body at work. BTW At the bottom of the video did specify that he is a top Tai Chi player. You see, when a pair of boxing gloves was putted on a Tai Chi man. He will become a handicap and lose most of his Tai Chi abilities; and has to fight like a boxer with his hands. The only features were left are his jin, leg and footwork. He has a sturdy body. His stance is firm and always keep himself in a vertical position. His kicks are strong. In the contrary, his opponent has very poor footing is because he fell couple times when he lift his leg attempt to kick the Tai Chi man.
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby mls_72 » Fri May 05, 2017 12:49 pm

ChiDragon,

I agree with you. As a fighter, Tai chi does have pugilism (Chuan) and it is lost and nearly forgotten. That is why few schools teach Da shou "striking hands". It is as if everyone has their heads in the sand with the fist and kick techniques in Tai chi and only want to see stick-adhere-join-follow push hands tricks. Tai chi also has "Shuai" which are throws, sweeps, and takedowns.
This is why Wei lei got his a$$ handed to him in 10 seconds.

Latest update:


Looks like Xu Xiaodong is in hot water with the Chinese authorites:

The fallout from the MMA vs. Taichi fight has now resulted in the top Wushu org in China banning challenge matches and saying Chinese martial arts is now only about health and fitness, while saying how deadly they are out of the corner of their mouths and on endless staged TV shows. The MMA fighter is being investigated by the government and is being threatened by gov security forces and has been accused of spying for Taiwan and conspiring against the government, all for challenging the commercial taichi community. Communism is a very dangerous thing.
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby Parkallen » Sat May 06, 2017 12:09 am

The video being so short can only adequately represent a mentality. The issue is not losing-versus-winning; the issue is, do you want to fight like that? Do you want to fight--and by extension, spend your life's time learning--by way of throwing a barrage of street style punches? To put it the other way around, do you want to win like that? If you won a fight by swinging like mad, would you feel accomplished?

There is nothing new to accepting the fact that a traditional martial artist will have difficulty facing a wild opponent. It is actually very hard to defend against a continuous, advancing and haphazard series of straight blows. Why is that? Consider how different the criteria is if you want to win with skill versus I want to win. The question to shine on this is, from what concept does such an approach derive? For the behavior shown in the video, what are its roots? The answer is, the concept is different, it is one of winning only (which is pathological), where as in martial arts, the concept is how you win. From these two different concepts evolves vastly different approaches to combat. When "how you win" is the root, then from that evolves a specific art form which we gain from culture; when "winning alone" is the concept, then no art form will derive from that, because there is no "how" which means there is no method. Some people have tried to elevate such a concept but lets not kid ourselves, there is no elevation in that.

The two are incommensurate. One might--ironically--be more "adaptable" and even more effective (but remember at what cost: pathology) nevermind the time spent learning something not worth learning. But also remember that when the two are incommensurate it becomes impossible to properly discuss the issue in comparative terms.
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby mls_72 » Tue May 09, 2017 5:09 pm

Latest:

A interview with Xu Xiaodong with translation:

It helps to clear up a lot of the misinformation that's been going around. Apparently his social media has been censored by the Chinese government for this interview and that his school is being closed down.

https://www.facebook.com/wong.yuenming.1/posts/10154346931242102
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby T » Mon May 15, 2017 8:33 pm

This whole thing upsets me from the fact that many in Traditional Martial arts can't fight, and believe they can, all the way to Xu Xiaodong finding himself in big trouble over this
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby Siahn » Tue May 16, 2017 1:45 am

ChiDragon wrote:Here is a real Tai Chi body(white pants) at work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHA9waDt88A


Im new to Tai Chi but this does not look like any Tai Chi I have ever seen or experienced. This guy is clearly proficient in a hard striking style ?
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby Siahn » Tue May 16, 2017 1:58 am

ChiDragon wrote:
ChiDragon wrote:Here is a real Tai Chi body(white pants) at work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHA9waDt88A

He has a sturdy body. His stance is firm and always keep himself in a vertical position. His kicks are strong. In the contrary, his opponent has very poor footing is because he fell couple times when he lift his leg attempt to kick the Tai Chi man.


Oh so hes got a sturdy body, strong kicks and he stays vertical and his opponent fell over so that means hes a strong Tai Chi player. No chance he could have got these attributes from TKD or some other art right?

It may be that TC has helped his overall training (I myself cross train in TC in order broaden my skill base) but theres no way you can use this fight to show a 'real Tai Chi body at work'. That is a very big leap/assumption.
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby ChiDragon » Tue May 16, 2017 9:22 am

Siahn wrote:
ChiDragon wrote:
ChiDragon wrote:Here is a real Tai Chi body(white pants) at work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHA9waDt88A

He has a sturdy body. His stance is firm and always keep himself in a vertical position. His kicks are strong. In the contrary, his opponent has very poor footing is because he fell couple times when he lift his leg attempt to kick the Tai Chi man.


Oh so hes got a sturdy body, strong kicks and he stays vertical and his opponent fell over so that means hes a strong Tai Chi player. No chance he could have got these attributes from TKD or some other art right?

It may be that TC has helped his overall training (I myself cross train in TC in order broaden my skill base) but theres no way you can use this fight to show a 'real Tai Chi body at work'. That is a very big leap/assumption.


That was exactly what I meant as highlighted in blue. However, he cannot fight with the Tai Chi techniques is because the gloves were putted on his hands. It forced him to fight like a boxer. You are right, there is no chance he could have got these attributes from TKD or some other art. As I had indicated before, at the bottom of the video, he was specified as a top Tai Chi player . A Tai Chi body would give him the strength and the body coordination to be a good boxer.
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby global village idiot » Thu May 18, 2017 7:07 pm

The points mls_72 and Parkallen make are very valid.

For my part, I find the video compelling but unconvincing, as to the utility of taijiquan.

It's compelling because, let's face it - the guy got handed his butt in no time flat. The video points some things out which are related to taijiquan, and many that aren't, all of which, I think, contribute to the outcome we see.

The first impression I got from the video is that I didn't see taijiquan anywhere in it. Mr. Wei never got a chance to use it because he was just being backed up and pummeled until he fell. This being so, why did it happen? I believe it's because, as has been noted earlier in this discussion, Mr. Wei may not have trained all that much against Western-boxing style jabs and punches. If he had, he'd likely have reacted more appropriately. Taijiquan doesn't have a lot of tools in its toolbox against quick boxing jabs aside from evasion - we don't have hard blocks. It's hard to stick and adhere to a boxer who's throwing jabs.

Which brings me to my next point. Tai chi is, so the classics and past masters say, all about circles. Mr. Wei was backed up in a more-or-less linear fashion, never once ducking and stepping to his oblique. There weren't many opportunities to do so in this short bout, but they're there. In other words, he was interacting with Mr. Xu entirely on the latter's terms - how else could the fight go?

Mr. Wei did nothing but retreat in a linear fashion. Mr. Xu had a ton of energy he was pushing in a likewise linear fashion - not just with the punches, but also pushing ahead more-or-less blindly. Is this not what we train for? The jabs might be hard to counter, but the movement is exactly what we train to neutralize.

Mr. Wei seemed keen to have the fight go the way he wanted it, and lost it for want of an opportunity to have things go his way. He lost sight of the fact that his opponent has a say in the outcome; but what's more, he was too intent on his own ideas as well. This is me projecting, perhaps, but that's what it looked like - he just failed to adapt to things as they were right there in front of him.

I think the Bruce Lee quote is timely and well-put, and gives us something important to think about. A fight is a fight. It's not sparring. Boxers and MMA fighters may have a high regard for their opponents; still, once the fight's on, they put any thoughts of good-will out of their mind. In other words, our opponent should best be thought of not as another human being as worthy and noble as ourselves or anyone else - there'll be time enough for that AFTER the fight - but as an interactive target to be engaged. It sounds cold and somewhat psychotic, but a key ingredient to succeeding in a fight is refraining to see the humanity in your opponent. Mr. Wei had the look, to me, of someone who was trying to teach a lesson rather than just prevail. The difference in mindset cost him the bout.

I also think, finally, that while this bout is instructive, it's too much to say it shows taijiquan to be of no value. Anecdote =/= data, and this video serves as just one VERY instructive anecdote.

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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby fchai » Thu May 18, 2017 9:48 pm

Hi gvi,
Your words bring to mind the advice a friend gave to me years ago. His advice was not to get into a fight if you plan to avoid causing serious injury or even death. If you even have the smallest iota of this, turn and walk away as you will likely lose if the other guy don't have that to hold him back from hurting you big time. The other great advice he gave was not to fight drunks if you can avoid it, as they don't feel pain the way we would. So unless you totally smash them, they will just keep on coming.
Take care,
Frank
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Re: Yang Taiji Practitioner loses bad to Boxer/MMA challenge

Postby global village idiot » Fri May 19, 2017 6:40 pm

Your points are well-taken.

There's a video whose title I wish I could remember, from a guy doing what appears to be a self-defense class related to firearms in addition to what they call "ECQC" - Extreme Close-Quarters Combat (the new fancy term for hand-to-hand or what the Army calls "Combatives"). It was a block of instruction connected with "mindset," and spoke to this.

After work today, I'll ask around and see if my friends in the training business can remember it - I suspect they'll be able to pull it up quickly. I think it's worth sharing, to see how the things this instructor says about close-quarter combat apply to the video at the center of this discussion.

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