Differences between Yang and Tung

Differences between Yang and Tung

Postby T » Sun Aug 27, 2006 1:16 am

I am wondering if Tai Chi from Tung Ying Chieh is still considered Yang style by the Yang family or is it considered Dong style?

My reason for this question is that my teacher was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and my teacher has always called it Yang Style. But after recently watching a few DVDs of Yang Style, as done by the Yang Family I have seen several differences.
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Postby shugdenla » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:25 am

Dong/Tung style is essentially Yang style per tis category or placement.
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Postby Audi » Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:50 am

As far as I understand it, the Yangs do not "police" what is and what is not Yang Style, they simply teach their understanding. They also recognize that the family has taught many disciples and many students and has changed aspects of the teaching over the years. As a result, variation is to be expected.

As I also understand it, the concept of Tai Chi styles is also relatively new. Yang Style Taijiquan originally simply referred to the Taijiquan taught by the Yang family. Indeed, one Chinese word for family (jia1) is also frequently used to refer to different "schools" of thought. As other families have modified the art and begun to look to themselves for standards, rather than to the Yangs, it only makes sense to associate that family's name to their teaching. Whether a new "style" is formed can be simply a matter of opinion with little substance behind it.

I do not know that much about the Tungs' Taijiquan, but the little I know seems to make it by far closer in spirit to what I have learnt in the Association than to some other versions of Taijiquan that people have no problem calling "Yang Style."

Names can be important, but then again, what's really in a name?

Take care,
Audi
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Postby tccstudent_usa » Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:19 pm

I like the Dong style. I think they have the right intent in their forms. You can definitely see the spirit of Yang Cheng Fu embedded there.
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Postby Audi » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:38 pm

Greetings all,

For what its worth, I was looking up something on the Chinese Wikipedia and happened to see references to "Dong Style" with only a brief reference to its tranmission in Honk Kong.

To be precise, the vast majority of references to Taijiquan "styles," seemed to be phrased as something that could be interpreted as "Taijiquan (associated with those of the) Yang/Chen/Dong Surname." I can surmise that the Chinese is not as forceful as English in implying that there is a necessary difference between styles.

By the way, I once read that at least one of the Dong's used or uses a bow stance that was narrower than shoulder width. Can anyone comment on this?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">But after recently watching a few DVDs of Yang Style, as done by the Yang Family I have seen several differences.</font>


As I understand it, there are/were also several differences in the way Yang Zhenji, Yang Zhenduo, and Fu Zhongwen do/did the form. I don't know if the Dong's show the same degree of variation, but variation is not necessarily a big deal.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby tccstudent_usa » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:53 pm

I don't understand why so many people get hung up on form variations. It's been that way since the very beginning. Everyone of YCF's sons does it differently (even Sau Chung added a few of his own movements) from each other, just like YCF himself eventually did it differently.

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Postby TaiChiGuy » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:36 am

Hm.. I've actually never heard of Dong style Tai Chi. I only know of the Chen, Yang, Sun, Wu and Wu3 styles. Is it similar in flow and form to the Yang style?

Any site I can get more info on it?

Thanks.


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Marcus
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Postby T » Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:42 pm

Dong Tai Chi
http://www.dongtaichi.com/

Dong is not recoganized by the PRC but there is another form recognized by the PRC Zhaobao which is very much like Chen.

I have been looking into this a little more since my original post and it appears that the slow form taught by Tung Ying Cheih’s great grandson Alex is very similar to traditional Yang style a few postures are slightly different and a few of the repeat postures have been removed and in some places more obvious Fajing. My teacher was a student of Tung Ying Cheih and my form falls somewhere in between.

The biggest difference I see so far is in the fast form. The Dong fast form is very different than the Yang fast form. I have been trained in the Yang fast form by my Sifu but not the Dong fast form, which he does know. But from what I have seen of the Dong fast form I like it.
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Postby T » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:36 pm

Additionally, if this helps.

Tung Ying Chieh is where Dong style comes from and I found these

Tung Ying Chieh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8ydIbWD_sQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny9biV4DQmo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuWaVcWgHdc
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:48 am

These clips look very much like the clip of Yang Sau Chung doing his version of the Yang family form, there's a link to that elsewhere on this site.
The hands arrive before the kicks with this form as well.
Other than that, very much alike.

Bob
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Postby T » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:59 pm

As I have come to suspect it would be since my original post.

I guess as far as he long form is concerned I can say, if I wanted, I do Yang style as taught by Tung Ying Chieh. However I know the fast forms are very different between the families. But I am at a loss as to the differences, if any, in the weapons forms. I was taught by my teacher who was taught by Sifu Tung, who was trained in both Yang and Hao style, and I have not seen any one do the Yang style weapons forms as they directly come from the Yang family. What I do could be exactly the same or completely different, I don't know.

My teacher knows both fast forms, Yang and Tung, which he learned from Sifu Tung and the fast form that I was taught was the Yang family fast form not the fast form of Sifu Tung so that leads me to not being quite sure of the weapons forms. And now that I think of it, I am not sure of what Traditional Yang family push hands are like either. I may or may not be doing the same thing, I’m not sure.
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:22 pm

T,
Drop on over to the Yang Shou Zhong Video discussion and follow the link there to watch his form. You'll see very much the same form being done.
This appears to me to be a Yang family style form, similar to what is being taught by Master Yang Jun. It's differences are much less than it's similarities and really are only differences in terms of window dressing, not substance.
I wouldn't worry too terribly much about your weapons forms. If they are "different" it will again only be in terms of how it's dressed up, not in its principles.

Bob
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Postby T » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:59 am

Thank You, I see what you mean, they look very similar.

The reason I am trying to figure out where the weapons forms come from has more to do with where I will go to continue my training, Dong family or Yang Family. I have 9 good years and 3 not so good with my Sifu and to continue moving forward it has become necessary to move on.

Thank You Again.
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Postby yielding » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:36 am

Just curious T -- why did you feel you need to move on?? Why three bad years??
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:09 pm

T,
Whatever decision you make, you will be getting quality TCC training. That's what's important from that aspect.
For what it's worth, three bad years, for whatever reason, is not a good thing in my opinion regardless of how many years were good previous to that.
I've experienced having a teacher who seemed good at first, then later on turned out not to be. So I can totally identify with your situation.
If it's time to move on, then move on and don't look back. Take with you what is important and relevant and leave the rest behind.
The Yang family will be able to take you as far as you'd like with your training, regardless of what you've learned in the past, as long as you are willing to leave it there, in the past, and be willing to move on to the future.
It took me a long time to figure that out, but now that I have let the past go and am moving forward, I am making leaps and bounds in my understanding every day.


Bob
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