Timings.

Timings.

Postby Simon Batten » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:25 am

I'm afraid I have not had the privilege of observing Yang Zheng Duo or Yang Jun performing the form, although I have Yang Zhen Duo's superb book, 'Yang Style Taijiquan'. From this book, I have realised that the Tai Chi I have learned from a (Chinese)Master in London is almost identical to the form of Yang Zheng Duo in almost every particular, and that the few very small variations are accounted for by slight differences in the execution of applications. However, of course, what I can't tell is how fast Yang Zheng Duo or Yang Jun do the Form. Of course, I could buy the video, but it takes a long time to arrive from America, and besides, I am rather impecunious at present! Really, out of curiosity more than anything else - but it's a serious curiosity - I would very much like to know HOW LONG the form takes when performed by Yang Zheng Duo or Yang Jun. The Master from whom I learned takes almost exactly 23 minutes. I would very much appreciate information on this subject from pupils/students/disciples, etc., of the Yangs. Kind regards, Simon.
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Postby César » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:07 pm

Hello Simon!
Check this out: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000051.html

In the Newsletter of the International Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan Association (N° 10), Master Yang ZhenDuo says:
"...Doing the form one time commonly takes about 25 minutes now. In the past, we took 45 minutes to do the form three times in a row session. The transitional time between moves was longer, the postures were lower, and the moves were slower..."
I Hope this helps

Take care

César
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Postby shugdenla » Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:14 pm

Hello Simon,

A long taijiquan Yang form takes anywhere from 15-25 minutes (played once). There is nothing to say you cannot do it in 14 or 26 minutes. 30 minutes may be too slow and 10 minutes may be too fast, depending on the individual. Wushutaijiquan slowness should not be the goal because the form should be done at a 'faster' pace.
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Postby Simon Batten » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:37 pm

Thank you very much, Cesar. I have just looked at the link you pointed out and it was very illuminating. I'm interested that Yang Zhen Duo takes about 25 minutes nowadays - only two minutes of difference from what I have learnt in London! I don't bother timing my own form, usually, but when I have, it's come in at around 22 minutes. Thanks again, kind regards, Simon.
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Postby Simon Batten » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shugdenla:
<B>Hello Simon,

A long taijiquan Yang form takes anywhere from 15-25 minutes (played once). There is nothing to say you cannot do it in 14 or 26 minutes. 30 minutes may be too slow and 10 minutes may be too fast, depending on the individual. Wushutaijiquan slowness should not be the goal because the form should be done at a 'faster' pace.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby Simon Batten » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shugdenla:
<B>Hello Simon,

A long taijiquan Yang form takes anywhere from 15-25 minutes (played once). There is nothing to say you cannot do it in 14 or 26 minutes. 30 minutes may be too slow and 10 minutes may be too fast, depending on the individual. Wushutaijiquan slowness should not be the goal because the form should be done at a 'faster' pace.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Shugdenla. I agree that there is probably no ideal timing in general, and obviously, also, one might want to speed up or slow down ones form practice for different purposes or emphases. I think, too, a taller individual might take longer than a shorter one, owing to the slightly longer time necessary to take the same distances slightly scaled up proportionately. Kind regards, Simon.
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Postby bamboo leaf » Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:17 am

I think the idea that it should take a certain time is not quite correct. Maybe a better way would be to say that it takes as long as it takes based on your own level of development. Key words, slow, even, and constant are what I use and stress, along with low. But its all relative to ones own training. I play the from slower compared to most that I have seen but it does not seem so to me. In china some that I have seen play the form appear to be very still but actually are still moving. I think this is not purposeful but a natural development of ones practice provided that ones practice promotes this direction.

Fast comes from slow but slow cannot come from fast.

For a class setting there is a tempo set by the teacher to help others find their own speed and rhythm.

Mindfully and carefully like chewing food enjoying the taste to the last bite. Taiji is not fast food.
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Postby Simon Batten » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bamboo leaf:
<B>I think the idea that it should take a certain time is not quite correct. Maybe a better way would be to say that it takes as long as it takes based on your own level of development. Key words, slow, even, and constant are what I use and stress, along with low. But its all relative to ones own training. I play the from slower compared to most that I have seen but it does not seem so to me. In china some that I have seen play the form appear to be very still but actually are still moving. I think this is not purposeful but a natural development of ones practice provided that ones practice promotes this direction.

Fast comes from slow but slow cannot come from fast.

For a class setting there is a tempo set by the teacher to help others find their own speed and rhythm.

Mindfully and carefully like chewing food enjoying the taste to the last bite. Taiji is not fast food. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Bamboo Leaf, for pointing out that Masters set a time only as a guideline to help others find their own speed and rhythm. However, I think it will be many years before I find my own speed and rhythm. 23 minutes seems neither too fast nor too slow. Even at that speed, I think I will never stop learning new levels of detail in the Form. Just when I think I've finally learnt it, the Master corrects me on a detail, sometimes just down to a matter of inches. To do the Form at my own speed would be very interesting: but I'm not that self-assured yet. Kind regards, Simon.
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Postby Peterkung » Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:40 pm

For health benefit 25-27 mins is perfect. 23 mins is very good already, the better skill you are the longer and smoother you can perform the form. Even one minutes make a different composition of the whole form. For demon purpose, do the 49 form it take 7-8 minutes. Try to do your form with 2 minutes extension you will see the different.
pkung IYFTCHA student
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Postby Simon Batten » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:04 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Peterkung:
<B>For health benefit 25-27 mins is perfect. 23 mins is very good already, the better skill you are the longer and smoother you can perform the form. Even one minutes make a different composition of the whole form. For demon purpose, do the 49 form it take 7-8 minutes. Try to do your form with 2 minutes extension you will see the different.
pkung IYFTCHA student</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Peter: thanks for your encouragement. Strangely enough, I hadn't actually timed my form for a while and assumed it was still around 22 or 23 minutes. But last week, I timed it and it actually lasted 25 minutes! So maybe I am making progress along the line you have suggested. And you're right: I can feel a difference, just from the addition of two minutes, but what's odd (or perhaps in fact, rather welcome), is that the change has come about spontaneously, without any intention on my part. Kind regards, Simon.
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