Cheng Man Ching status in lineage

Cheng Man Ching status in lineage

Postby Steveg219 » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:38 am

Hello and thank you for this excellent site and forum resource.

I am curious to know what is the view of the official Yang Family organization on the role of Cheng Man Ching in the lineage of Tai Chi.

Best Regards
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Postby JerryKarin » Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:11 pm

I believe Zheng Manqing is acknowledged by the Yang family as a disciple of Yang Chengfu. Zheng created his own version of the form which, as far as I know, he did not call Yang Style, terming it 'simplified' taiji instead.
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Postby yslim » Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:52 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
I believe Zheng Manqing is acknowledged by the Yang family as a disciple of Yang Chengfu. Zheng created his own version of the form which, as far as I know, he did not call Yang Style, terming it 'simplified' taiji instead.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby Steveg219 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:34 am

Yes, that is the common view. However, he actually taught the YCF 108 form, sword, various forms of push hands, chi kung, etc.

His "modified" form is simply a shorter version of the 108 containing most of the same movements designed to learn in a shorter time period as is very common today with versions of the form such as 24 movements. I believe his also credited with transcribing and editing the text for the famuous YCK book.

Just curious how this relates to the official Yang family lineage and teaching.

Thank You
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Postby shugdenla » Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:05 pm

Steveg219,

Only the hairdresser knows!
Within the secret world, alot of things are left unsaid and the mystery remains.

Even definition is sometimes withholding regarding the truth so if our assumption is that student=disciple, then Cheng Manching is a lineage holder but that also depends if he had some tool to show that he was 'of lineage'.

The bottom line is that Cheng Manching was part of the literati, had knowledge of calligraphy, medicine and was more educated in the modern sense of the word and therefore had an insight into the many benefits of taijiquan. And yes, he was a student of Yang Chengfu.

Other than that, it would be interesting to gauge the results of his official status.
It means that even though he was not of lineage, because of his being the master of 4 excellences, he was able to start his own lineage!
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Postby Steveg219 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:11 pm

Thank you for the response, that is a very interesting point of view. His status was such that he can be considered a new lineage.....!

Regards,

Steve
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Postby JerryKarin » Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:06 pm

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I believe Zheng was formally inducted as a disciple and he is on the list of disciples that the Yangs keep. Even if he weren't, his status as a student of YCF decades ago makes him an "older fellow-student" to me, therefore according to the traditional etiquette for these relationships automatically deserving of my respect, given that I'm a student of Yang Chengfu's son. But we don't even need to rely on these formalities - there are plenty of first-hand accounts from people who knew and studied with Zheng testifying to his formidable abilities.
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Postby yslim » Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Steveg219:
<B>
Thank you for the response, that is a very interesting point of view. His status was such that he can be considered a new lineage.....!

Regards,

Steve</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Steve

I can witness Shugdenla 'historical point of view" in process.. My Taiji partner and I do Taiji at our local park (Lover'sPoint,Pacific Grove,Ca.) 4-5 times a week when weather gives us such offer we can not refuse. Many people (90% of them were tourists)came up to us and ask "Is that Cheng Man Ching form?" while we were practicing the Loajia Yilu, and some of them told us they had done Taiji
before. The most ask question was "What form is this?". The second question"is that Cheng Man Ching form?". "Chen and Yany form?" tie for third for question ask. Since tourists come from all walk of places, is that mean 'Cheng Man Ching form' is spread around like butter? Or going to be? A leery thought?.

My guess is that I don't think the Chen Village Father has any leery thought about Yang Lu-Chan will break their "rice bowl" and take Taiji into his own name when he left the Chen Village. ( today some people out there may not even know that the Jaiji quan as we know it in our modern time was progress from the Chen)

The history has turn out fine for the Yang Form from the Chen Form. Is there any reason to doubt Cheng Man Ching form won't has the right stuffs to spin-off?.

"Only the hairdresser knows!" as Shugdenla stated. Thanks for the no brainer. I should not have bad hair day.

Ciao
yslim
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Postby Steveg219 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:00 pm

Thanks all for your replies, it is great to "meet" such enthusiastic and positive practioners.

Coming from and having mostly trained in NY (now live in Arizona) CMC tai chi is by far the most prevalent variation and for many years WAS considered Yang style regionally. More recently the official Yang family practise has become well known and the differences can be seen.

What is fascination to note is that in no way is anything really changed in the CMC practise. It is really more of how one interprets and applies the underlying principles. The CMC tradition that I studied tends to emphasize certain principles such as staying upright and keeping formal posture (straight back, shoulders down, chin in, tan tien, etc.) to the point where the stances are shorter as it is nearly impossible to actually do this with long stances or where postures lean forward as in single whip in the YCF intepretation. However, the same movements and forms can be done many ways and all are perfectly valid.

As always, it really comes down to the experience in the moment of the application of principle to intent, chi and movement!!

Steve
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Postby T » Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">In fact, Yang Zhenduo went to great lengths to diferentiate between the types of movement exemplified in the Cheng Manching and his father’s style; and he made it clear that wanted to highlight essential requirements of his father’s style. These stylistic differences can be summarized by the difference in interpretation over the Chinese word “sung.” To the Cheng Manching stylists this word has always contained the ideas of being sunken, relaxed and empty. Yang Zhenduo, however, emphasized the characteristics of being open, extended and full.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://formosaneijia.com/2006/yang-zhen-duo-vs-cheng-man-qing-and-large-vs-small-frame/

http://www.taichiandqigong.com/yang_compare.php

[This message has been edited by T (edited 08-15-2007).]

[This message has been edited by T (edited 08-15-2007).]
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Postby JerryKarin » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:17 pm

Yang Zhenduo used to get asked a lot why he did some things differently from Zheng Manqing. He would always explain that what he taught was what he himself was taught in his family. He always expresses respect for Zheng but since he learned differently he is unable to explain, justify, criticize, etc what Zheng was doing, because he had little knowledge about Zheng's changes and the reasons for them. Anyway, I would suggest an open mind and leave room for traditional Yang style and Zheng's revised version. It is not necessary to make value judgements about the two ways. Both are good. Pick the style you like and practice it!
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Postby Steveg219 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:59 pm

Thanks all for the fascinating information and links. Above all, the focus of Tai Chi is self development. Stylistic differences are of course trivial and irrelevant to the core purposes of practise.

It is valuable to consider differences in application and interpretation for what they may teach us to improve our practises. I am grateful for this input!

Steve
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Postby yslim » Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:18 am

Hi
Something happen to my post
Please don't ask me what happen..
let try again

Hi Jerry

My humble apology to use your earlier post for posted a empty post earlier with your quote (about 8 posts ago) I had email you about my problem with how to post and I need a "real time" test. so I choose your because I feel you have a more open-minded and understanding kind character. Thank you for being you.

We often focus so hard on how to fang sung our body in Taiji practice but seldom think of how to fang sung our mind to let it be open for Taiji discussion.

Your suggestion for an open mind on our journey in Taiji with respect to each other's boundary is wise and well taking.

Maybe this will lead to open up another topic
"How the fang sung mind improve your Taiji?"

Ciao may you all have a good Taiji day
yslim


[This message has been edited by yslim (edited 08-16-2007).]
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Postby TCosta » Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:51 pm

Hello, all. I practice CMC's 37 form. I can tell you that, from my instructor's point of view, fang song does not mean empty, as in limp or collapsed. Empty of tension, yes, but not plain empty. And we are supposed to have a good rounded full peng, as well. I guess I am writing this because I feel the perceived difference may be due to a lack of appropriate words, in English; there is no difference in the Chinese language used. A relaxed fullness is what we shoot for, in my class. And I am told, by an 10+ year Aikidoka that I practice with, that I have good extension. What I am trying to say is that I am not sure there is a difference in what we are aiming for, once we put it all the pieces together and abandon each individual English word translation and look for the composite feel of the style.

Thanks for considering.

-Trevor

[This message has been edited by TCosta (edited 08-16-2007).]

[This message has been edited by TCosta (edited 08-16-2007).]
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Postby Steveg219 » Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:11 pm

I fully agree. The outer form may look different but we are all striving for the same thing.

In my CMC school, and many other ones as well, there have been a number of students who have accomplished significant abilities to root, neutral, return and release internal power.

The state of relaxation we seek is really unlike anything people normally experience. It is at once both soft and relaxed and yet incredibly powerful and practical. It is truly "steel wrapped in cotton". My teacher was an incredible example of this in that he accomplished a powerful elasticity in which you could push on him without him touching you anywhere and you will still bounce back!
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