Yang Cheng Fu Tanbien early and late.

Postby Simon Batten » Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:28 am

Bob: I've now researched as far as I am able on the web for images of Sun and Wu performing Tanbien. There are a number of images around of them in other postures but not in Tanbien - at least, not on the web (as far as I am able to discover, that is ...). I agree though that it would be illuminating to see images of them in Tanbien. I wonder if there are any books available showing them in the posture? Kind regards, Simon.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
<B>One more thought...
Look at a photo of the ending point for Tanbien of Wu Chien Chuan...
I don't have one handy, but I'm sure you can find one if you look.
See anything different?
Let's see if we can't come up with a photo of the end point of Sun Lu Tang, or one of his students, performing the end point of their Tanbien...
Anything different there?

It's what is the same between these photos and Yang Cheng Fu's that is important. What is that?
The principles.
The height of your hand is not really all that terribly important in the long run. As long as you are applying the principles of TCC, it can be pretty much anywhere and still be "correct".

Bob


[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 08-20-2007).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:18 pm

Simon,
I have seen quite a few photos of Wu Chien Chuans Single Whip, but like you I have been nearly completely unable to find a still photo of his Single Whip posted online.
I can see it, clearly, on the Wustyle website, but it is part of a flash video and it goes by very quickly. I was unable to capture the single photo from the flash to post. Maybe someone with better skills in that kind of thing will have better luck.
I do have quite a few books with the still photo, but as my scanner bit the big one about six months ago I am without any means to scan a copy. Not to mention I would be goosey about infringing copyrights doing a thing like that.
I have seen the Single Whip of Wu style many times. While it has the same internal aspects as the Yang Tanbien, externally it appears quite different.
I will keep looking for a source photo and will post a link to it if I do.
Sun style Tanbien is even more different, externally, than Wu style. Again, I have not found a photo of it online at this point, but I haven't looked for very long either.

If anyone can give us a hand, it would be greatley appreciated.

Bob
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Postby Michelvandijk » Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:46 pm

Hello,
I'am just a lurker; always enjoying your forum. So thank you for that. In this article the postures in the different styles are compared with drawings of the single whips. (I hope the link works)

http://www.longfei-taiji.co.uk/news/vol3iss2/compare.htm

so and now back to lurking
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Postby Simon Batten » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:45 pm

Thanks, Michael. The pictures are very clear and show the quite marked differences between the styles. Interestingly, the Yang style Tanbien posture shown has the hooked hand about parallel with the top of the right ear, as in the late photo of Yang Cheng Fu, although the model for the line drawing doesn't look like Yang Cheng Fu - and I'm wondering who it's modelled on. Kind regards, Simon.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Michelvandijk:
<B>Hello,
I'am just a lurker; always enjoying your forum. So thank you for that. In this article the postures in the different styles are compared with drawings of the single whips. (I hope the link works)

http://www.longfei-taiji.co.uk/news/vol3iss2/compare.htm

so and now back to lurking</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby Simon Batten » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:50 pm

Bob, thanks for trying anyway. Sorry to hear about the scanner. Actually, my printer 'hit the big one' a few months ago and I've only just got round to getting a new one. When I opened up the old one to try and find what had caused it to pack up, I found some dead leaves inside!!! I have no idea how they got there .... Kind regards, Simon.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
<B>Simon,
I have seen quite a few photos of Wu Chien Chuans Single Whip, but like you I have been nearly completely unable to find a still photo of his Single Whip posted online.
I can see it, clearly, on the Wustyle website, but it is part of a flash video and it goes by very quickly. I was unable to capture the single photo from the flash to post. Maybe someone with better skills in that kind of thing will have better luck.
I do have quite a few books with the still photo, but as my scanner bit the big one about six months ago I am without any means to scan a copy. Not to mention I would be goosey about infringing copyrights doing a thing like that.
I have seen the Single Whip of Wu style many times. While it has the same internal aspects as the Yang Tanbien, externally it appears quite different.
I will keep looking for a source photo and will post a link to it if I do.
Sun style Tanbien is even more different, externally, than Wu style. Again, I have not found a photo of it online at this point, but I haven't looked for very long either.

If anyone can give us a hand, it would be greatley appreciated.

Bob
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby Louis Swaim » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:34 am

Bob,

I went to Google, Images, and entered a search for Wu Jianquan. Here's a link to a page with a photo of Wu Jianquan's Single Whip:
http://www.geocities.com/ycgf/taiji.htm

--Louis
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:13 pm

Sorry folks,
I was in a car accident Tuesday and have been recovering since.
I'm fine. Just bruises from the seat belt mostly and what feels like a lightly sprrained muscle in my lower back.
My van, however, is toast. Not much left of it.
Ah, well...
That's what happens when someone runs a red light in front of you when you're traveling at 45 m.p.h.
I'm just glad no one was seriously hurt.

But back to TCC.
I'd like to thank Michael and Louis for finding these excellent links for us.

The differences between the styles is clear, but so are the similarities.
In Wu style the body comes to the center, like in Wuji, weight distributed evenly between the legs. Left arm is rounded with palm set instead of extended.
In both Hoa and Sun style there is no hook hand.
But these are external differences, slight differences in interpretation and execution, not differences in internal principles.
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Postby Audi » Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:37 pm

Greetings all:

Does anyone happen to know what application Wu Jianquan is showing with his right arm or any other reasoning behind the height of his right risk?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">, the Yang style Tanbien posture shown has the hooked hand about parallel with the top of the right ear, as in the late photo of Yang Cheng Fu, although the model for the line drawing doesn't look like Yang Cheng Fu - and I'm wondering who it's modelled on.</font>


Simon, at least for me the "top of the right ear" seems more or less like what we do. Orienting on the top of the head, however, would be too high.

Take care,
Audi
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Postby Simon Batten » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:25 am

Bob: very sorry to hear about the accident. If any consolation, I actually seem to have sustained slightly worse injuries from falling over outside a pub on Thursday night, but I can't blame that on anyone else but myself and having one too many beers! (cut hand and something wrong with my lower right ribs - tender and ache when I lie down on that side or cough ...). Funnily enough, a friend of mine who is an eccentric actor thought it would be a laugh to buy a 'Reliant Robin' which is a three-wheeled English car that used to be around in the 70s and 80s. One morning he got into the car, switched on the engine and whoosh! The thing burst into flames. He got out pretty quickly and watched the thing literally melt before his eyes where it was parked outside his flat, as the body was made of fibreglass. He showed me some photos of it afterwards and it was just a black molten mass. But amazingly, his mobile phone, which he had left in the car, had more or less survived: its casing had largely melted but it was actually still operational! Kind regards, Simon.

posted by Bob Ashmore:
<B>Sorry folks,
I was in a car accident Tuesday and have been recovering since.
I'm fine. Just bruises from the seat belt mostly and what feels like a lightly sprrained muscle in my lower back.
My van, however, is toast. Not much left of it.
Ah, well...
That's what happens when someone runs a red light in front of you when you're traveling at 45 m.p.h.
I'm just glad no one was seriously hurt.

But back to TCC.
I'd like to thank Michael and Louis for finding these excellent links for us.

The differences between the styles is clear, but so are the similarities.
In Wu style the body comes to the center, like in Wuji, weight distributed evenly between the legs. Left arm is rounded with palm set instead of extended.
In both Hoa and Sun style there is no hook hand.
But these are external differences, slight differences in interpretation and execution, not differences in internal principles.

</B>[/QUOTE]
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Postby Simon Batten » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:32 am

Audi:

I'm afraid I know really nothing about the Wu style, but from a Yang point of view it would seem both his hands are very high and the left finger tips also are almost in line with the top of his head and not just the right wrist; and I don't think it's just the camera angle. Presumably there is some variant of the application involved here. The apparent 'double weighting' of the posture is interesting. But maybe that is only the external appearance and internally he is not double-weighted. Kind regards, Simon.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
<B>Greetings all:

Does anyone happen to know what application Wu Jianquan is showing with his right arm or any other reasoning behind the height of his right risk?

Simon, at least for me the "top of the right ear" seems more or less like what we do. Orienting on the top of the head, however, would be too high.

Take care,
Audi</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:34 pm

Simon,
Sorry to hear about your fall. I have managed to do that myself once or twice, and it has occaissonaly been due to the ubiquitous "one too many" also.

I seem to have recovered from my accident with the exception of a minor "twinge" in my lower left back if I move too quickly. It's getting slightly less "twingy" with each day, so I'm sure it will be a thing of the past quite soon as long as I don't push it.
The biggest drag for me has been trying to get around without a vehicle. My van is, as I said, completely totalled and with the holiday weekend my insurance company hasn't been in any hurry to cut me a check so I can get something to drive.
I've been reduced to borrowing my 16 year old daughters car to get around. I had to borrow her car Saturday morning to make it to class, then again today to get to work.
At least she has a car for me to borrow!

Good thing your friend was able to get out of the inferno that was his car! Weird about the cell phone.

As for Wu style Single Whip, the applications are very similar to the Yang style applications, nothing very different involved really. It may look a bit different, but it is very much the same in principal.
At least, the friends I have that practice that style did the same applications as we do when I asked them.
The "double empty, double full" stance is not an external manifestation, that is how they do that. I have a few friends in the Wu style and I've seen this quite often, have even practiced it that way but not for a LONG time now. I do not know why they do it like that.
However, if you REALLY want a different looking form, with quite different applications at least outwardly expressed (principles are the same) in between the Wu and Yang forms...
Look closely at each styles White Crane Spreads Wings.
While their principles are very much the same, the outward look of them is quite different.
For one thing, in the Wu form the feet are close together, weight is evenly distributed and they "bow" forward from the waist and turn the upper body to the left before returning to upright. The right arm does not arc up above the head during their form either, ending instead at eye level with elbow down and with standing palm facing forward.
I made the mistake of asking a Wu stylist why they do that once. I found out the hard way...
He demonstrated it on me.
Let's just say I've never seen a Yang style application demonstration for White Crane that involves the opponent being behind me. That's not to say they couldn't be, I'm just saying I've not seen it yet.
I imagine the Wu style White Crane, with some minor alteration, can also be used in the same manner as the Yang version, just as I'm quite sure that the Yang version, with minor alteration, could be used just like the Wu style version. However, on first blush, they have very little in common visually. I had to play with it a bit before I found the similarities, which are internal and much more prevelant then the differences.
Again, I am at work with limited time to surf around looking for photos. But if anyone could help us out, it would be appreciated.

I guess my thrust is this:
As long as the principles are maintained, the outward appearance doesn't matter very much.
Watching the Macao fight (don't know if I spelled that right), one can clearly see that application and form are almost always going to appear radically different from one another.
We train form as we do to learn the principles.
Then we can beyond the form to use the principles as required.

[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 09-04-2007).]
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Postby Simon Batten » Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:46 pm

Bob: glad to hear you've recovered well and I'm pleased to say my own self-inflicted wounds are virtually cured now too. I'm interested in the idea of White Crane in the Wu style as being executed from behind the opponent and I'm wondering if that involves somehow evading an attack, then quickly circling behind the opponent and then executing the deflection? It seems strange: I haven't heard of form postures being executed from behind the opponent. It seems to negate the idea of using the opponent's momentum or energy against him/her ... Kind regards, Simon.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
<B>Simon,
Sorry to hear about your fall. I have managed to do that myself once or twice, and it has occaissonaly been due to the ubiquitous "one too many" also.

I seem to have recovered from my accident with the exception of a minor "twinge" in my lower left back if I move too quickly. It's getting slightly less "twingy" with each day, so I'm sure it will be a thing of the past quite soon as long as I don't push it.
The biggest drag for me has been trying to get around without a vehicle. My van is, as I said, completely totalled and with the holiday weekend my insurance company hasn't been in any hurry to cut me a check so I can get something to drive.
I've been reduced to borrowing my 16 year old daughters car to get around. I had to borrow her car Saturday morning to make it to class, then again today to get to work.
At least she has a car for me to borrow!

Good thing your friend was able to get out of the inferno that was his car! Weird about the cell phone.

As for Wu style Single Whip, the applications are very similar to the Yang style applications, nothing very different involved really. It may look a bit different, but it is very much the same in principal.
At least, the friends I have that practice that style did the same applications as we do when I asked them.
The "double empty, double full" stance is not an external manifestation, that is how they do that. I have a few friends in the Wu style and I've seen this quite often, have even practiced it that way but not for a LONG time now. I do not know why they do it like that.
However, if you REALLY want a different looking form, with quite different applications at least outwardly expressed (principles are the same) in between the Wu and Yang forms...
Look closely at each styles White Crane Spreads Wings.
While their principles are very much the same, the outward look of them is quite different.
For one thing, in the Wu form the feet are close together, weight is evenly distributed and they "bow" forward from the waist and turn the upper body to the left before returning to upright. The right arm does not arc up above the head during their form either, ending instead at eye level with elbow down and with standing palm facing forward.
I made the mistake of asking a Wu stylist why they do that once. I found out the hard way...
He demonstrated it on me.
Let's just say I've never seen a Yang style application demonstration for White Crane that involves the opponent being behind me. That's not to say they couldn't be, I'm just saying I've not seen it yet.
I imagine the Wu style White Crane, with some minor alteration, can also be used in the same manner as the Yang version, just as I'm quite sure that the Yang version, with minor alteration, could be used just like the Wu style version. However, on first blush, they have very little in common visually. I had to play with it a bit before I found the similarities, which are internal and much more prevelant then the differences.
Again, I am at work with limited time to surf around looking for photos. But if anyone could help us out, it would be appreciated.

I guess my thrust is this:
As long as the principles are maintained, the outward appearance doesn't matter very much.
Watching the Macao fight (don't know if I spelled that right), one can clearly see that application and form are almost always going to appear radically different from one another.
We train form as we do to learn the principles.
Then we can beyond the form to use the principles as required.

[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 09-04-2007).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:34 pm

Simon,
The application I am speaking of is for an opponent grabbing you from behind. Not you approaching him in that way.
It's very interesting, actually. Once I learned it I really enjoyed practicing it. As long as there is a mat under and in front of you, it's quite fun to apply in this way. Without the mat I would not want to do this to anyone who didn't truly deserve it, believe me.
It is a throw, basically. Very hard to describe.
Learning it helped me understand the "sinking" required for proper execution of White Crane, and that is just the same in Yang style where the throw is not visually prominent. You still sink, in pretty much the same way, you just apply the energy differently.

Bob
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Postby Bradeos Graphon » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:02 am

The White Crane Spreads Wings in Wu Jianquan style - bái hè liàng chì - isn't the same form as the White Crane in Yang style. It is a holdover from the Wu family's Shuaijiao days as members of the Imperial Guards brigade. The bit in the Wu style form that corresponds with Yang style White Crane is part of Raise Hands Above Step - tí shǒu shàng shì.

If someone strikes you, you intercept the arm, ride it in, turn 45 degrees, hit and offset their hip with your hip and throw them into the ground. There is a version called Reverse White Crane where you step behind the opponent from the side, grab the neck from behind and use the same leverage to throw a person - from behind. Done correctly, their neck will be broken before they hit the ground.

Wu style White Crane looks like a standard hip throw from many other styles, but the feet are kept closer together to protect the groin from any strike by the falling opponent.

It is a safe throw to train, and usually the first trained in Wu style, because the person being thrown will fall flat on their back, distributing the impact evenly throughout the body. It acquaints students with being thrown and minimising the chance of injury to an unconditioned student. After being thrown many times, the conditioning is established and then the psychological barrier is passed - hitting the floor is no big thing anymore - it even becomes fun if the student can learn to completely neutralise such an impact. Then more complcated (and dangerous) throws are introduced.

The counter to someone trying to throw you like that is an elbow lock from Cloud Hands.
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:29 pm

Bradeos,
I agree with you on just about everything you say, however I have to disagree that the moves are not internally the same. At the heart of them, they are very much the same.
The principles between them, with the exception of the introduction of the hip throw, are nearly if not totally identical.
In fact, doing them both, one right after the other, shows clearly how similar they are.
The Wu style hip throw was added, and I'm certain for the very reasons you state here, however it seems more like a slight change to an existing form to accentuate a slightly different application rather than something that was invented by the Wu's from whole cloth.
The movements into the forms are very much alike, the movements of the form are done mostly using the same internal energies. Only the addition of the hip throw during the movement seperates them. In fact, once you straighten up from the hip throw portion, the rest of the form is internally identical.
The sinking aspects of the form are the same, the energy is used in the same way after the throw. You can change from one to the other seamelessly with very little alteration.
All these things lead me to believe that while the forms are showing differing aspects of the same thing, they are still similar in most respects.

The name alone shows that their origins are similar. Beyond that Wu Chuan Yu learned from Yang Lu Chan and Yang Ban Hou and the two families forms, name by name, are very much alike in their principles throughout. Relatively minor external changes, based on slightly differing ideas of application and frame size, seperate the two styles forms at most points.
Beyond that one very minor point of disagreement (and I sincerely hope we can agree to disagree and discuss this amiably), your post is an excellent insight into the Wu style and it's origins.
I commend you on your knowledge and as always welcome the chance to discuss these types of differences and samenesses (is that a word?) with intelligent people who enjoy the art and it's practices.
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