Yang Cheng Fu Tanbien early and late.

Postby shugdenla » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
<B>Bradeos,
I agree with you on just about everything you say, however I have to disagree that the moves are not internally the same. At the heart of them, they are very much the same.
The principles between them, with the exception of the introduction of the hip throw, are nearly if not totally identical.
In fact, doing them both, one right after the other, shows clearly how similar they are.
The Wu style hip throw was added, and I'm certain for the very reasons you state here, however it seems more like a slight change to an existing form to accentuate a slightly different application rather than something that was invented by the Wu's from whole cloth.
The movements into the forms are very much alike, the movements of the form are done mostly using the same internal energies. Only the addition of the hip throw during the movement seperates them. In fact, once you straighten up from the hip throw portion, the rest of the form is internally identical.
The sinking aspects of the form are the same, the energy is used in the same way after the throw. You can change from one to the other seamelessly with very little alteration.
All these things lead me to believe that while the forms are showing differing aspects of the same thing, they are still similar in most respects.

The name alone shows that their origins are similar. Beyond that Wu Chuan Yu learned from Yang Lu Chan and Yang Ban Hou and the two families forms, name by name, are very much alike in their principles throughout. Relatively minor external changes, based on slightly differing ideas of application and frame size, seperate the two styles forms at most points.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will tend to agree but the main distinction is functional, as you may be implying! Yu and Wu Jianquan style are essentially the same, and as stated the shuaijiao background appeared to have initiated the lean associated with Wu style.
The lean is emphasis, like a dragon wrapping its tail around an object, with an apparent axis rotation.


[This message has been edited by shugdenla (edited 09-06-2007).]
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:29 pm

Shugdenla,
It has been my assertion for a long time now that the only real differences between the major named styles of TCC are external.
I don't think I'm alone in this belief.
Each style, and beyond that each subset inside a named style lineage, is using the same set of internal principles to drive it, that's why they are all Tai Chi Chuan and not different types of martial arts altogether.
Since the founder learned his art from the Chen style, the internal principles between them are the same. They certainly look different on the outside, but inside it's the same thing.
Wu Yu Xiang, his brother (darned if I can come up with his name right now) and Yang Lu Chan worked together to create the two styles now known as Yang and Wu/Hoa/Li. At least two of these individuals trained with the Chen family to do so and they all used the same set of "Tai Chi Classics" as well when it came time to create their forms. Same internal principals though.
Wu Chuan Yu learned from the Yang family. His son Wu Chien Chuan learned from his father. From what I have read neither of them refered to their style as "Wu style" that was done by their students, prior to their students making the distinction, they just called what they were doing "Tai Chi Chuan", and more specifically Yang style Tai Chi Chuan. Their style is based on the Yang style, using the same internal principals. They almost certainly have kept some of their shuaijiao origins, how could they not, but the internal principles driving the art are the same.
It is the same with Sun style, learned from Wu/Hoa/Li and incorported with Xingyi and Bagua. All three of the internal styles got mixed up in this branch. Still, the same internal principles apply.
The different styles all have the same common thread, the principles.
The rest is window dressing.

Bob
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Postby Bradeos Graphon » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:58 pm

Bob,

There is an interesting Shuaijiao article in the following back number magazine:

Journal of Asian Martial Arts Volume 15, No. 1, 2006. Via Media Publishing, Erie Pennsylvania USA. ISSN 1057-8358

If you can get a hold of it you will see demos of various Shuajiao throws used by the Imperial Guards, and one of them "Look to the Left" looks and applies like the Wu style White Crane. It wasn't something made up, but it was something the family applied Taiji principles to and improved.

Coincidentally, in the same issue (and why I have the issue) there is a nice obituary for my late teacher, Wu Daxin.

Cheers!
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:07 pm

Bradeos,
If you've trained with Wu Tai Sin, then you've had one of the best teachers imaginable.
I had the pleasure of meeting him, he was very polite to me and my family.
I grieved greatly when I heard of his passing.
Do you now train with his nephew, Eddie?

I have seen a lot of shuaijiao in my day. I have mentioned that I have a few friends who train the Wu style, some of them were quite well versed in shuaijiao. Some even took the time to work with me a tad, showing me some of the simpler aspects of the art. I quite enjoyed it but have never had the priveledge to have a teacher in that art to study it in any detail.
I quite respect it, actually. I would like to study it more in depth if I ever have the opportunity.
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Postby Bradeos Graphon » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:27 pm

I actually started training with a senior student of Wu Daxin who was first a student of his cousin, Wu Dachi. I was able to spend some time in HK and was lucky enough to learn sword forms from Wu Yanxia as well. I've had some seminars over the years from Sifu Eddie, but I'm not close enough to Toronto to make it practical to study there. Now of course he spends most of his time in HK, from what I hear.
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Postby Bradeos Graphon » Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:37 pm

That should have been Wu Daqi (Wu Ta-ch'i), not Wu Dachi, sorry.


The following video is a good example of Wu style pushing hands. These are students of Ao Sigong, disciple of Wu Gongyi and head of the Wu style Singapore school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McWezZzEODw
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:44 pm

Bradeos,
Good clip. Looks similar to what we do, I can't imagine why...?
;-)

The Wu family has good schools and some fantastic teachers.
At one time I hung out quite a bit with some Wu Academy students and we learned a great deal from each other. But that was a long time ago and in another part of the world.

Did you see this one?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O2kCqevdUM
Good clip of Eddie teaching.

Bob
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Postby Bradeos Graphon » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:34 am

Bob,

Very good clip! I hadn't seen it, but that's Sifu Eddie all right.

Conversely, his uncle barely spoke when teaching.
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:35 pm

Bradeos,
I just wish they would have gone for another couple of minutes to let Eddie finish up with his discussion of the Three Body Segments.
I've heard his lecture on this once before, a LONG time ago in a galaxy far, far away, but it never hurts to hear something like it more than once.
Very similar to Yang Cheng Fu's "Ten Essentials", but from a different perspective.
I especially like when he does the application with his head and shoulder! I have never seen anyone do that before. I had to watch that part a few times, it's hilarious and informative at the same time.

I had the priveledge of attending a seminar where Wu Tai Sin demonstrated.
As I recall, Si Kung demonstrated while Eddie narrated. I don't recall him saying a word.
I quite enjoyed his demonstration.
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Postby Bradeos Graphon » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:43 pm

The sectional teaching method (3 sections and 9 joints) was Wu Gongyi's creation, Sifu Eddie's grandfather.

Wu Gongzao gave a description of it in the "Gold Book" for which an English translation is now available from Sifu Eddie Wu's website.

Also, Douglas Wile had a translation of the "40 Chapters" from Wu Jianquan's original handwritten manuscript in his 1995 "Lost T'ai-chi Classics from the Late Ch'ing Dynasty." It is interesting to compare the translations.
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Postby Bradeos Graphon » Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:05 am

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Postby Bob Ashmore » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:02 pm

He sure is moving fast. Long form in less than five minutes.
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Postby shugdenla » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:18 pm

He is using the template of Yang Chengfu's style/frame on his shuaijiao background.
General Li taught Yang style to Chang Dungsheng, who in turn, taught the general the 'tuishou' of shuaijiao because his Yang stye was 'lacking' a martial base!

The slow or fast is not the standard. It is how you can use it or know how to use. Slow is for competition or performance or feeling good. Fast by itself, like how people do changquan today makes no sense but it can score points.
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Postby JerryKarin » Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:15 am

He shows a lot of signs of having some gongfu. That said there are many things in that clip which I find disconcerting. A lot of times the arms seem to move independantly of the rest of the body, which seems to violate the principles. Frequently it looks to me like the legs arrive at endpoint long before the arms, which would also not be in accord with the principles. Worth comparing with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_hCCTTG3UY
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Postby JerryKarin » Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:44 am

The more I look at that clip, the better he looks, and yet at the same time there is a tricky quality to it and it would seem to have to be judged on its own terms. The external forms are recognizably Yang style, yet the intent, spirit, weighting, rhythm etc seem to be something else entirely from what the Yangs do. At first it looks just like Yang taiji, and then the more you look at it, the less it looks like Yang taiji!
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