Yang115 frame?

Yang115 frame?

Postby dr.zero » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:59 am

Hi all.

I was wondering what's the Yang Family's opinion of the Yang115 frame if there is any? For those who don't know, the frame is somewhat different from the 108/103 frames you can find all over the internet, but the differences are really minute and consist of slight variations in orientation while performing certain postures, in repetitions, etc. (i.e. a bit different White Crane, 3 instead of 5 Repulse Monkeys, but with deeper backward steps and with more emphasized turns and so on...), and is more similar to the frame performed by Li Mo-gen.

My teacher's lineage goes from Yang Cheng-fu through Li Ya-xuan (said to be a senior student of YCF), Wang Ming-lon and his students Liu Xin-lu and Ho Ru-ming, all from Chengdu. The frame is also characterised by the largest postures I saw around. I also wonder if anyone could help me with some historical angles on the relationship between these variations on the long frame.


Kind regards,

dr.0

[This message has been edited by dr.zero (edited 02-03-2007).]
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Postby wokkie » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:12 pm

Is that the Yang 115 form in the video link below?

I learned this form 15 years ago in Australia, and though I have tried many other forms and variants since, there is nothing I've found that I like better.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KMx1pIiXnFI

I've spotted some Dong style on Youtube where the moves are similar, though the form is different.

I'd be very pleased to find that this is a known form, not something just invented by my teacher, who was very vague about names and lineage.
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Postby dr.zero » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:06 pm

Sorry, no. But here is a short version of the form (Yang43) performed by Li Yaxuan's son-in-law Chen Longxiang and it is the most similar style i could find to what I am practicing. I've never met him even if I had been in Chengdu.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=t4u3nUfLPHs
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Postby clarkleroy » Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dr.zero:
<B>Hi all.

I was wondering what's the Yang Family's opinion of the Yang115 frame if there is any? For those who don't know, the frame is somewhat different from the 108/103 frames you can find all over the internet, but the differences are really minute and consist of slight variations in orientation while performing certain postures, in repetitions, etc. (i.e. a bit different White Crane, 3 instead of 5 Repulse Monkeys, but with deeper backward steps and with more emphasized turns and so on...), and is more similar to the frame performed by Li Mo-gen.

My teacher's lineage goes from Yang Cheng-fu through Li Ya-xuan (said to be a senior student of YCF), Wang Ming-lon and his students Liu Xin-lu and Ho Ru-ming, all from Chengdu. The frame is also characterised by the largest postures I saw around. I also wonder if anyone could help me with some historical angles on the relationship between these variations on the long frame.


Kind regards,

dr.0

[This message has been edited by dr.zero (edited 02-03-2007).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Dr N,

We met Master Chen a few years ago in Chengdu. In fact, he and his wife kindly gave us some fascinating material for publication here. Unfortunately, the material was not able to be published for political reasons. It is extremely telling and a shame that serious students of whatever style of tcc cannot come to understand the significance.

A former practice buddy was a long term student of family member Zhao Bin. The account from Master Zhao (He lived with Chengfu for a while and Chengfu arranged for ZB to attend the country's equilavent to West Point Military Academy; in addition, ZB once was called upon to save the life of a famous current master ;-). Master Zhao related the story of how Li Ya Xuan won achievement as Master Yang Chengfu's student. In the beginning he was not recognized as such, i.e., as a tudi. He was merely viewed as an insignificant little student in the back corner. Outside students were a far cry from those inside the door. Anyway, when Li left the class and traveled up north, he was unfortunate to be challenged a few times. On each occasion Master Li prevailed, quite easily. After a time the word of these feats reached the ears of some principals in the style. They decided it would behoove them to acknowledge Li as, indeed, their student. In fact, Li Ya Xuan reached a very high level. Although he claimed to have no more than 30% to 40% of his teacher's skill, in fact, Li was uncommonly skilled. His is a remarkable story. I admire him highly for his humility and dedication. In my view, only such people for such qualities are able to reach truly high levels. For many years after his master's death, with the advent of the challenges placed by the unscrupulous likes of the Gu Luxin & Tang Hao, Li was the only senior adept to attempt to defend and carry the flag of the Yang claim as to the line of inheritance. Some argue that other adepts simply did not care or did not view the issue as having sufficient import. The highest level people like Tian were illiterate & thus unable to muster a defense other than in action. Nevertheless, LYX did and argued persuasively as a lone voice in the wilderness of that gov noise.

When I was on an assignment to a western state here (US) a student of the style contacted me briefly to exchange information. He lived and taught near the capital of CA.

Like all from that branch, he was very courteous, polite, humble. Unusual in certain parts of the taijiboxing world.

If i may suggest, if you haven't already, you will find the explanations of Li Ya Xuan to be extremely interesting for several reasons, none of which i can go into here. His writings are highly recommended.

Best Wishes,

leroy
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Postby wokkie » Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:07 pm

dr.0

I now know a little bit more. I noticed another youtube video where some of the moves are similar, particularly the transition from raise hands to white crane.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TCXuzE-bnxs

This turns out to be Dong Form. So what I practice is possibly derived from that.

Thank you for your assistance.
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Postby dr.zero » Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:25 pm

@clarkleroy
Thank you very much for the info, the only info I so far managed to peace together isn't really much, apart from his 1956 speech available here. I certainly plan on visiting master Chen next time I'm in Chengdu, it really seems his late teacher passed on to him his qualities like humbleness and generosity. But what did you meen by political reasons for not publishing this materials? If it can't really be discussed here, feel free to mail me.

@wokkie
No problem. Image

Interesting style, by the way. It allways fascinates me how you can learn stuff from different styles and make your own practicing better.

[This message has been edited by dr.zero (edited 01-01-2008).]
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Postby shugdenla » Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:28 pm

Thank you clarkleroy,

It is rare for people to relate present occurences of students of Yang Chengfu! He had many students and sadly it is the 'less knowledgeable' who proliferate today than the truly experienced who share their training while being the true standard bearers of the art!

Thanks again
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Postby Louis Swaim » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:14 pm

Greetings,

Several books on Li Yaxuan's Yang style by Chen Longxiang & Li Mindi are available from Lion Books through Plum Publications:
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/chinese/chinbks_trad16TC.htm

Hi Leroy,

Do you recommend any of these in particular?

Thanks,
Louis
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Postby clarkleroy » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:06 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
<B>Greetings,

Several books on Li Yaxuan's Yang style by Chen Longxiang & Li Mindi are available from Lion Books through Plum Publications:
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/chinese/chinbks_trad16TC.htm

Hi Leroy,

Do you recommend any of these in particular?

Thanks,
Louis</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Louis,

That's an excellent idea - to read directly from that source. I really believe it is always best to read or listen to the source directly if feasible. I cannot suggest any favorite. They all are quite good in my little view. But, I was particularly touched by Li's final moments & his utterly unselfish interest in passing on his knowledge & experience to his son-in-law. He was an incredible human being in multiple ways.

I won't mention it again out of respect for YZJ & the family (although definitely certain family members agreed with the conclusion) beyond this simple question - have you read the mainland's article re Li's "Eyebrow Comments"? I'm just curious.

I would like to pose a question Louis. Perhaps you & others have already researched this. If so I apologize. No need to regurgitate it on my account. But recently I have taken note re the old names of postures in what some call Jianhou's middle frame and some sets finalized later. Master Ma Yueh Liang & Dr. Zee described in chapter 8 of their book on Wu's tcc some variance in terms between, e.g., Wu Tunan, Cheng Zheng Ming & Ma himself earlier, and Hsu Zhi Yi, etc., etc. In particular, I am interested in the names "Tiger & Leopard Springs to the Mountain"(Wu's)& "Carry Tiger, Return to Mountain" (Yang's).

Ma & Zee explain that Wu's daughter, i.e., Ma's wife, checked her father's notes and they made the correction(s) based on those notes.

Notably, YCF's 85 set, as taught by FZW as well as uncle Zhao Bin, & Master YZD's set have some different titles. Interestingly, the older so-called middle frame & small frame have yet different titles, some fairly significant.

Referring to Ma's & Zee's chapter 8, what is your assessment of their explanation for the differences? In your view does it hold water or does it merely highlight an on-going transmission/translation problem?

Thank you.

Curious in Seattle,
leroy
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Postby clarkleroy » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shugdenla:
<B>Thank you clarkleroy,

It is rare for people to relate present occurences of students of Yang Chengfu! He had many students and sadly it is the 'less knowledgeable' who proliferate today than the truly experienced who share their training while being the true standard bearers of the art!

Thanks again</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cannot agree with you more Shengdenla.
Such 'less knowledgeables' are the bane of our favorite art today. But, where I used to try to rant on in frustration re this, with my own maturity now I see where this illness is in all fields & everywhere, not just our tcc. It behooves us to merely walk around them & just keep digging.

Best Wishes,

leroy
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Postby Louis Swaim » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:12 am

Greetings LeRoy,

Re: ‘. . .have you read the mainland’s article re Li’s “Eyebrow Comments”? I’m just curious.’

Do you have a link or a lead as to where I could read that article in Chinese? My first reaction was that this didn’t strike a bell, but after some digging, I again stumbled upon David Chen’s partial translation of Li’s “eyebrow” comments. See below.

Re: ‘Master Ma Yueh Liang & Dr. Zee described in chapter 8 of their book on Wu's tcc some variance in terms between, e.g., Wu Tunan, Cheng Zheng Ming & Ma himself earlier, and Hsu Zhi Yi, etc., etc. In particular, I am interested in the names "Tiger & Leopard Springs to the Mountain"(Wu's)& "Carry Tiger, Return to Mountain" (Yang's).’

Ma and Zee state that the variant, “Leopard and Tiger Push the Mountain” (bao hu tui shan) was passed down by Wu Jianquan. I take that to mean that it was his innovation. I’m inclined to think that many of the variant names can be explained for exactly that reason—some masters put their own spin on form names to coincide with the personal imprint of their style. Jianquan’s form instructions, as recorded in Wu Gongzao’s 1935 book (“The Gold Book”), used the “Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain” name, but states that it is “also called bao hu tui shan” (Leopard/Tiger push the Mountain). (Goldbook, p. 58) Some time back I posted some remarks about the “Embrace Tiger Return to Mountain” name, and its resemblance to a literary phrase, “Release Tiger, Return to Mountain”, which differs only in the first character. The thread of that discussion, if you’d like to read through, was here: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000088.html

By the way, someone had mentioned a Li Yaxuan article (partial trans. by David Chen) in that thread, which critiqued the alleged misinterpretation of the form name by Zheng Manqing, but I took issue with that analysis for reasons you can assess for yourself.

One thing that supports the “Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain” name as being well-established in the early Yang tradition is its appearance in the text said to be transmitted by Yang Banhou, “Quan ti da yong jue,” which is a remarkably intact (& compact) early inventory of Yang form names and applications. Wile translates the line, “The permutations of Cross Hands are infinite; Embrace Tiger Return to Mountain demonstrates Pull-down and Split.” (Touchstones, p. 47) I especially like the reference to the transformations of Cross Hands being limitless “shi zi shou fa bian bu jin.” I think Cross Hands was given greater prominence in the early Yang tradition than may be recognized more recently.

Take care,
Louis



[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 01-03-2008).]
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:58 pm

Louis, clarkleroy, all:
The history of some of the more major name changes are discussed in this months Tai Chi Magazine by a Wu family member, from the Wu/Hoa style not the Wu Chien Chuan lineage.
I cannot recall the gentlemans name off the top of my head, but this issues article is part 2 of a discussion about the history of Wu/Hoa style TCC. At one point he is asked about the name changes that the first Wu family member made to the form names.
He mentions changes made to "Lazy About Tying Coat" and "Buddhas Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar", "Embrace Tiger..." and a few other name changes into different form names. He sites many reasons for these changes, the one I remember is that oral tradition sometimes lead to misunderstandings and then changes over time of similar sounding words.
One thing I noticed was that the changes he referenced mostly seemed to be carried on today in the Yang tradition.
He makes mention of "Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain" specifically, but I don't recall off the top of my head the original wording of the form or the reasons for the changes made to it over time. He does mention the changes of the Wu Chien Chuan style, the Yang style and his Wu style.
I only just read the article last night, late, and I don't have a good recall of it for some reason right now.
I'll check the magazine when I get home and check back here. If no one else has elaborated on this, I'll do so at that time.

Bob
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Postby clarkleroy » Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
<B>Greetings LeRoy,

Re: ‘. . .have you read the mainland’s article re Li’s “Eyebrow Comments”? I’m just curious.’

Do you have a link or a lead as to where I could read that article in Chinese? My first reaction was that this didn’t strike a bell, but after some digging, I again stumbled upon David Chen’s partial translation of Li’s “eyebrow” comments. See below.

Re: ‘Master Ma Yueh Liang & Dr. Zee described in chapter 8 of their book on Wu's tcc some variance in terms between, e.g., Wu Tunan, Cheng Zheng Ming & Ma himself earlier, and Hsu Zhi Yi, etc., etc. In particular, I am interested in the names "Tiger & Leopard Springs to the Mountain"(Wu's)& "Carry Tiger, Return to Mountain" (Yang's).’

Ma and Zee state that the variant, “Leopard and Tiger Push the Mountain” (bao hu tui shan) was passed down by Wu Jianquan. I take that to mean that it was his innovation. I’m inclined to think that many of the variant names can be explained for exactly that reason—some masters put their own spin on form names to coincide with the personal imprint of their style. Jianquan’s form instructions, as recorded in Wu Gongzao’s 1935 book (“The Gold Book”), used the “Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain” name, but states that it is “also called bao hu tui shan” (Leopard/Tiger push the Mountain). (Goldbook, p. 58) Some time back I posted some remarks about the “Embrace Tiger Return to Mountain” name, and its resemblance to a literary phrase, “Release Tiger, Return to Mountain”, which differs only in the first character. The thread of that discussion, if you’d like to read through, was here: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000088.html

By the way, someone had mentioned a Li Yaxuan article (partial trans. by David Chen) in that thread, which critiqued the alleged misinterpretation of the form name by Zheng Manqing, but I took issue with that analysis for reasons you can assess for yourself.

One thing that supports the “Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain” name as being well-established in the early Yang tradition is its appearance in the text said to be transmitted by Yang Banhou, “Quan ti da yong jue,” which is a remarkably intact (& compact) early inventory of Yang form names and applications. Wile translates the line, “The permutations of Cross Hands are infinite; Embrace Tiger Return to Mountain demonstrates Pull-down and Split.” (Touchstones, p. 47) I especially like the reference to the transformations of Cross Hands being limitless “shi zi shou fa bian bu jin.” I think Cross Hands was given greater prominence in the early Yang tradition than may be recognized more recently.

Take care,
Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 01-03-2008).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Louis,

Ok, thank you for your explanation & view on those terms & the link to the previous discussion. It is most interesting. Definitely, I agree with you re the old terms. Material from the first two generations provides such a keen insight into the early practice.

I don't have a link to the original article. Rather, Master Chen Longxiang gave us the information directly. It took us some time (because of other commitments) to translate it. But right before submission, we had a call from Mr. Chen directing us to NOT publish it. It seems Mr. Yang Zhenji was very angry at Mr. Chen over the mainland article. He complained that their "bread & butter" was being harmed. Therefore, CLX asked us to NOT publish it.

Regarding David Chen's translation of a piece of the "Eyebrow Comments", either he deliberately changed the theme & tone of the original or he missed the point. The original theme goes to the very heart & meaning of tcc itself rather than merely opining on gesture terms; it is much, much more. The bottom line is quite easy to understand - either Li is correct or the book's author is correct. The assertions do not allow two such disparate views in tccland. For this very reason, in fact, the critique is highly educational - the idea of a senior Yang student(LYX) arguing with a junior student (CMC) should be very enlightening to we lesser students. But it is not to be - at least for the near future. Eventually, I am sure the information will come out. Heck, maybe we'll do it finally in some sort of way. It has to since it is too important to ignore, regardless of one's point of view or which side of the equation lies one's allegiance.

I've already said quite enough. Out of respect for Mr. CLX & the late Mr. YZJ, I need to leave it at this.

Thanks for the info on the discussion on the old terms. It is very interesting.

Another question - did you get a chance to visit the display of 'that' royal poet who wrote the sonnet on tcc after seeing Luchan in combat at the Zhang compound? His descendent relative lived or maybe still lives here. Sorry the name escapes me just now. A couple years ago the royal poet's material was returned to a museum in Shanghai - it had been in a museum here for several years. I believe there is a possibility that he wrote other descriptions that might be interesting & informative to read. The next time we visit Chen Weiming's grandson, I hope to ask him about it (since the grandfather was a noted scholar). Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Best Wishes,

leroy
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Postby Louis Swaim » Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:05 am

Greetings LeRoy,

Re: “Another question - did you get a chance to visit the display of 'that' royal poet who wrote the sonnet on tcc after seeing Luchan in combat at the Zhang compound? His descendent relative lived or maybe still lives here. Sorry the name escapes me just now.”

That was Weng Tonghe, tutor of the Kuangxu emperor. I posted some remarks on him somewhere on this board a few years ago, along with my translation of the Yang Zhenji passage about the event you mention. He wrote extensive diaries, and like you I am curious if there are any more accounts of his encounters with Yang Luchan. It’s a slim chance, but worth looking into. I’ll have to go back to the East Asian Library at U.C. Berkeley and do some digging.

I would like to read more of the Li Yaxuan perspective. The only problem I had with the short excerpt via David Chen was that it appeared to attribute an interpretation to Zheng Manqing specifically with regard to the Embrace Tiger Return to Mountain form name. Again, the evidence is very clear that the name was well established far in advance of his arrival on the scene.

Take care,
Louis
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Postby Bob Ashmore » Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:34 pm

All,
First of all, I have no desire to infringe on copywrited material so will not be quoting anything from Tai Chi Magazine directly.
Basically Wu Wenhan says that Wu Yuxiang replaced "Embrace Head, Push to Mountain" with "Embrace Tiger, Push To Mountain" to give the form name a richer, more descriptive meaning that invokes the fierceness of the Tigers spirit into the form name.
The form name change made by Wu Yuxiang he discusses that I like the best is the change from "drawing opponent in" to "hands strum the lute". I can clearly see how this change would clarify the ending posture. However, my personal feeling is that it might have been better to keep the original form name and simply append the "hands strum the lute" to the end of it.
"Drawing opponent in, hands strum the lute" seems to cover the entire forms meaning while retaining the poetic and desciptive air that the changes were shooting for.
Then again, what do I know? ;-)


Wu Wenhans insights in Wu Yuxiangs lifetime make a very good read.
In fact, I dug out the last issue and re-read the entire article from beginning to end last night.
Very imformative and interesting stuff in there. I recommend the article highly.

Bob
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