transition from push to cross hands

[tanmeiryu]

as with all applications of forms in the martial arts there is a lot of room for interpretation. i would like to find if there is a definitive application for some of the postures or transitions in the form not discussed by master yang jun in the traditional form dvd. for example, the transition from push to crossed hands, where the whole body is turned to the right making a wide arc with right hand while the left hand basically stays in place.
i could make up my own interpretation of this move, but is there an "official" yang family meaning?

[Audi]

Hi Tanmeiryu,

I assume you are talking about the push position that comes at the end of Apparent Closure.

In my view, we use the word "application" to mean two related, but different things. One meaning concerns the practical use that a particular sequence of movements might lend itself to, with changes appropriate to the specific circumstance. The other meaning concerns the sequence of movements you would use to accomplish a particular goal. I distingish the two because the former is a looser concept that is more mental than physical, while the latter is much more about efficiency and effectiveness. I also think that the training goals are different. The former is about learning more about your body and opening up options. The latter is about fine-tuning and automating certain responses.

As I understand it, at the end of Apparent Closure, the mind should envision an attack coming from the right rear. To meet this attack, you rotate the right arm and open the body to the right in order to chop/slap down with the right palm or palm heel to do An to the attack. For instance, if the opponent were launching a punch, you could land on top of the opponent's forearm to bring it under control.

Take care,
Audi

[shugdenla]

tanmeirryu,

Nothing wrong with your interpretaion as long as it fits with your learning and understanding!
The transition fron single push hands to double push hands should involve concepts of waist turning (as opposed to whole body though body is part of the axis within process) where it is (can be) ncorporated into the posture playing while saying that one hand may may be more forward (pushing 'empty' side) than the other ('full side') though many usually play both hands equally (both hands forward).

The function of 'official' may be differnt but I am guessing the Zhenduo/Yang Jun official position as opposed to other official Yang family style.

[Audi]

Hi Shugdenla,

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The transition fron single push hands to double push hands should involve concepts of waist turning</font>

I am not sure I understand why you referenced Push Hands, let alone single-hand and double-hand versions. Wasn't the original post only about the hand form?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The function of 'official' may be differnt but I am guessing the Zhenduo/Yang Jun official position as opposed to other official Yang family style.</font>

I understood the original poster to be using "official" in a different way. I thought he was using shorthand to describe the one application you should use for your intent when you do that particular posture. The implication is that every posture can be adapted to many different applications, but in doing the form, one particular application should be in your mind and shape the precise details of your movement.

Other styles seem to have a different application in mind during the transition into Cross Hands. Many of them have the hands open so that they end up spread symmetrically right and left, before the circle down into Cross Hands. The Association's form is not like this. We do it with the right hand doing something slightly different from the left hand. According to my understanding, the right hand will end up distinctly lower than the left hand as the weight settles into the right leg. I make them fully symmetrical only as I shift the weight back into my left leg.

Take care,
Audi

[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 05-03-2008).]

[tanmeiryu]

audi,
thanks for clearing that up.
shugdenla,
thanks for the reply. you sound like a very well informed guy but, and please don't be offended, your answer left me more confused than before i asked the question.

[shugdenla]

Cross hands can belong to any system so in that sense it is a general description pertaining to 'touching hands' with anyone regardless of style!
Push hands may also be called touch hands (tuishou) and it can/has been also known as roushou (rolling hands) and other similar names. I am not a linguist but in the west tuishou is usually called push hands. Doesn't quite fit but it has been in use and people kind of know what the other is talking about.

If you know nothing about tuishou, then you need to start with basics. This means starting with single push hands, thn you move to double push hands, then you may have reached an intermediate stage where you have mastered the aforementioned and progressed to moving tuishou (for lack of a batter wording on my part) encompassing both single and double PH then progression to usage and sanshou or similar training!

Prior to that hopefully you would have done some zhanzhuang, or taijizhuang and moving posture repetition which may entail the intermediate training.
That is all that I am saying! In order to cross hands, the assumption is that you are learning the basics in whatever form they are then once that is mastered, then you would have a rudimentary knowledge of 'cross hands', abiliy to interact with another practitioner without regard to style!

[Bob Ashmore]

Shug,
I see where the confusion has come in.

Tainmeiryu was asking about martial applications for a transition in the traditional Yang family long form between a posture that ends in a push position, named "Apparent Close Up" or "Apparent Closure" or "As Though Sealed and Closed", that comes at the end of Section 1 and the next posture in the form sequence, called "Cross Hands", that begins Section 2. They were not asking about "pushing" or "sensing" or "sticky" hands, also known as tuishou.

Bob

[shugdenla]

Thanks Bob,

Tanmeiryu

I am not familiar with use of posture "Cross Hands" (end of 1st section) as actual application but the shuaijiao application per usage is qinna and possible throwing! I can also see it as a block with both hands looking at inner palm (neilaogong) and if the opponent's forearm went over the X block (cross hands) then wrist turns outward to grab and possibly throw hence the turn but it need not be a turn.

[Bob Ashmore]

Shugdenla,
Yes, those are a few of the possiblities for Cross Hands. I actually see it, like you mentioned, as more of a possible throw.
Of course, that might harken back to my days training a similar style in which that was how it was practiced. Either way, the throw is in there though it is not outwardly manifested as such in the Yang form.
Cross hands as outwardly manifested in the Yang form works quite well as a defense against an incoming groin kick, as the hands cross quite low then raise up with the settling of the weight, left over right ends as right over left (you would not believe how tricky that seemingly easy hand crossover is to get at first). This intercepts and melds with the incoming energy, then flows upward with it, effectively toppling your opponent.

The original question pertains to the transition just before it though. Moving from the end of "Apparent Close Up", which ends in a position that is the mirror image of Push from Grasp The Birds Tail, you sit your weight back onto your right leg, then turn whole body 90 degrees to the right, opening your chest and extending your right arm all the way to 135 degrees from starting direction. The right arm is showing An, pushing downwards on any incoming appendage to understand and hopefully control it.
Then you move into "Cross Hands" from this position.
I don't know that there is any single definitive usage that could be applied to this, the vast array of applications I can think of to use this for would fill this entire forum and there would still be plenty left to write about.

Bob



[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 05-07-2008).]