More on Cheng Man-ch'ing and Yang Style T'ai Chi

More on Cheng Man-ch'ing and Yang Style T'ai Chi

Postby Danny » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:55 am

Greetings,

In response for information supporting Prof. Cheng's length of study and status as a disciple or "Indoor Student" of Yang Ch'eng-fu, I compiled the following from several sources and now offer it also to this group:

In the foreword to Yang Ch'eng-fu's 1934 text "T'ai Chi Ch'uan T'i Yung Ch'uan Shu", Prof. Cheng gives us an outline of his early
involvement in T'ai Chi. Louis Swaim provides us with an excellent translation of this in his "Yang Chengfu: The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan".

On page 1 of Swaim's translation Prof. Cheng writes:

..."In 1923, I assumed a teaching position at Beijing Fine Arts Academy. A colleague, Liu Yongchen, was good at this art of
Taijiquan. Because I was emaciated and weak, he urged me to study. Barely a month passed before I had to quit because of important commitments, so I was not able to catch on to the art."...

In the text of Yang Ch'eng-fu's earlier book written in 1931, "T'ai Chi Ch'uan Shih Yung Fa", Liu Yongchen (Liu Yung-ch'en) is listed as a senior student of Yang Ch'eng-fu. In 1923, Yang was still in Peking, and it is therefore assumed that Liu was still in touch with his teacher, if not actually still studying with him. Perhaps Prof. Cheng had the chance to meet Yang during this time.

(Indeed, in an interview conducted by William C.C. Hu and published in Black Belt Magazine in January 1965, Prof. Cheng says that he was introduced to Yang in Peking by Liu!)


Yang left Peking in 1928 and traveled to Shanghai where he lived and taught T'ai Chi. (However, Yang died in Canton while on a teaching visit there).

In 1924, Prof. Cheng was invited to teach at the Shanghai College of Fine Arts and he accepted. So, both Yang Ch'eng-fu and Prof. Cheng were living in Shanghai in 1928.


Prof. Cheng continues on page 2 of Swaim's translation:

"In the spring of 1930, because of overwork while establishing the Chinese Academy of Literature and Arts (in Shanghai), I had reached the point of coughing up blood, so I resumed study and practice of taijiquan with my colleagues Xiao Zhongbo (Hsiao Chung-po) and Ye Dami (Yeh Ta-mi)."...

It is interesting that Prof. Cheng uses the term "colleague" in referring Hsiao and Yeh. In the Chinese text Prof. Cheng uses "t'ung shih" (tongshi) which means something like a "co-worker". This implies a most informal and somewhat equal relationship between Hsiao, Yeh and Prof. Cheng...

I could not find Xiao listed in Yang's 1931 list of students, but Yeh Ta-mi is listed as a senior student of T'ien Chao-lin (Tian
Zhaolin) in that text.

Leroy Clark and Key Sun have written a very good article on T'ien found at: http://www.art-of-energetics.com/New/tian_zhaolin.htm

Yeh Ta-mi, it seems, was also close to Yang Ch'eng-fu. In another online TCC forum Leroy Clark wrote: "Ye argued to YCF that Tung's written language was extremely coarse and rough and by publishing Yang's (1931) book would defame the family. Based on Ye's influence on YCF, YCF pulled the book from Tung. The book was eventually written by CMC."

And, from a article of reminiscences of a Mr. Huang Jing-hua also translated by Leroy Clark and Key Sun and presented on another TCC forum:

"Teacher Huang Jing Hua was born in 1909. He went to Shanghai to learn painting in 1925. There, in that art college he befriended Cheng Man Ching. They became close friends. In 1926 the two of them learned tai chi boxing and sword from Ye Da Mi. In 1928 they met great master Yang Chengfu. During this time, Jinghua used Ye's students as practice companions. Later Jing Hua learned boxing from Chengfu."

In this text, Huang is simply saying that both he and Prof. Cheng met Yang Cheng-fu for the first time in 1928, probably through the introduction of Yeh Ta-mi. Thus, we can be reasonably sure that, if Huang's dates are correct, there was probably continued contact with Yang Cheng-fu and his circle of senior students by Prof. Cheng beginning in 1928.


Prof. Cheng continues in Swaim's translation, pg. 2:

..."In the first lunar month of 1932, I met Master Yang Chengfu at Mr. Pu Qiuzhen's house. After the old gentleman had introduced me, I humbly presented myself at Master Yang's door, and received his teachings, including his oral instructions of the inner work."...

My former T'ai Chi classmate, Mark Hennessy, translates this section as, ..."In 1932, P'u Ch'iu-chen introduced me to Yang Ch'eng-fu. After accepting me as a disciple, I recieved the master's oral teaching on the internal martial arts."...(found in "Cheng Man- ch'ing: Master of Five Excellences", pg. 119)"

Doug Wile translates this section as, "Early in 1932 I met Master Yang Ch'eng-fu in the home of P'u Ch'iu-ch'eng. Old P'u introduced me to the master and I humbly asked for instruction. When he orally transmitted the method of internal cultivation (nei-kung) to me, I suddenly understood the meaning of not using ch'i." (from an early issue of T'ai Chi Magazine...sorry, no date available!)


What is to be noticed here is that Prof. Cheng is saying that he became an "Indoor Disciple" of Yang Ch'eng-fu in 1932.

If any of you have the Chinese text of "T'ai Chi Ch'uan T'i Yung Ch'uan Shu" it is on page 3 and begins with "Jen Shen Cheng Yueh" and ends with "K'o Shou Nei Kung".

Within this passage is where Prof. Cheng says "Chih Chui Yu Men", which has the meaning of "I (Cheng) became his (Yang's ) disciple". The Chinese word "Men" literally means "Door". The picture here is of Yang accepting Prof. Cheng "into his door" as a private student/disciple/Indoor Student...all the same meaning.

(Just a side note on Hennessy's translation found in "Cheng Man-ch'ing: Master of Five Excellences"...in the "Publisher Note" found
facing pg. 1, the publisher writes:

"As a final check on the accuracy of the manuscript, the publisher hired Dr. Evelyn Hsieh of the East Asian Languages Department at the University of California at Berkley to read the translation alongside the original Chinese and CORRECT ANY ERRORS (emphasis mine) from an academic perspective. Her corrections and suggestions have subsequently been incorporated in the text."

Therefore, it must be the case that Hennessy's translation of the phrase "Chih Chui Yu Men" as "accepting me as a disciple" is NOT in error!)

The text does not imply that this was the first time he met Yang, and a few minutes later he was a disciple! The process of Prof. Cheng becoming accepted as a "disciple" had to have begun much earlier within Yang's circle.

It is therefore resonable to assume that Prof. Cheng had been practicing with Yang's students and colleagues (e.g. Yeh Ta-mi, Huang Jing-hua and others) in Shanghai under Yang's presence, and had been doing so since at least 1930! Only by putting in the time and being accepted by Yang's students and colleagues could Prof. Cheng have "qualified" to be initiated as an "Indoor Disciple" of Yang!

Mr. P'u, even though he was probably not a T'ai Chi student of Yang Ch'eng-fu, was obviously a close acquaintance of Yang and was acting as Prof. Cheng's sponsor in becoming an "Indoor Disciple" of Yang. A sponsor formally introducing a student to a teacher of any discipline was the accepted way in traditional Chinese society.


And, we also must not forget the incident of Prof. Cheng curing Yang's wife of a serious illness. Indeed Ch'en Wei-ming, a famous senior student and disciple of Yang Ch'eng-fu mentions this occurance himself in his Preface to Prof. Cheng's "Thirteen Chapters"!

If Prof. Cheng had not already been within the circle of Yang's students and colleagues, why would he be asked to help Mrs. Yang? This incident seems to confirm that Prof. Cheng was already "in the loop" so to speak and a respected member of Yang's circle of students!

Ch'en Wei-ming also states the following in his Preface:

"When Master Yang Ch'eng-fu came south (i.e. Shanghai), he (i.e. Prof. Cheng) studied T'ai Chi Ch'uan with him for six years." Ch'en Wei-ming was living and teaching T'ai Chi in Shanghai during this period (1928-1936), so he would have been intimately aware of Yang's circle of students!

(see pg. 1 of Douglas Wile's "Cheng Man-ch'ing's Advanced T'ai Chi Form Instructions" for Ch'en Wei-ming's Preface)


Prof. Cheng continues on pgs 2-3 of Swaim's translation by recounting how he and fellow T'ai Chi classmate, K'uang K'e-ming, convinced Yang to publish his teachings which we have in the 1934 text. K'uang also is listed as a senior student of Yang's in the 1931 text. Apparently K'uang and Prof. Cheng had been friends and T'ai Chi classmates for a while...


Also, this webpage from the Cui Yishi family lists the "Inner Door Disciples" (Pai Men Ti T'zu) of Yang Ch'eng-fu, and has Prof. Cheng listed as the 20th disciple of Yang Ch'eng-fu:

http://www.yongniantaiji.com/contents/newpage2.htm

Cui Yishi was an early senior student and disciple (aka Indoor Student) of Yang Ch'eng-fu in Peking. He started learning from Yang in 1909 and accompanied him to Shanghai in 1928.


Li Yaxuan (aka Li Chunnian) who was also an "Indoor Student" of Yang Ch'eng-fu from 1914, recorded his reminiscences in 1975 about the "Fa Chin" ability of the Yang Family and of some of his classmates in "Yang Shih T'ai Chi T'ui Shou Ch'uan Chen" on pages 51 and 52 of that text...

The classmates Li names in his list are, Wu Hui-ch'uan, Cui Yishi, Tung Yin-chieh, T'ien Chao-lin (Tian Zhaolin) and Cheng Man-ch'ing!

Please note that Li, Cui, Tung and T'ien were all known to be disciples (aka "Indoor Students") of Yang Ch'eng-fu. (Wu's father, Ch'uan Yu, was a student of Yang Lu-ch'an and went on to found the "Wu style" of T'ai Chi. But according to Li in his text, Wu Hui-ch'uan was also consided a student of the Yang's.)

If Prof. Cheng was merely a dilettante at T'ai Chi (as some have claimed) and NOT a Disciple of Yang Ch'eng-fu, then why is he
included on this list with Yang's KNOWN Disciples?

Also, if Prof. Cheng was not also considered somewhat skilled in T'ui Shou among his classmates on the mainland, then why would Li have included him in this list?

A translation of this portion of Li's text by Key Sun and LeRoy Clark can be found on pg. 44 in Volume 11, No. 3, Autumn 2001
of "Qi: The Journal of Tradtional Eastern Health and Fitness." The part concerning Prof. Cheng says:

"Cheng Man-ch'ing had a skill such that after he knew the situation of the opponent, he could come out to attack successfully. So even though he was small of stature, he had skill and courage. Even if an opponent had made preparation, it was to no avail."

I don't know the last time that Li and Prof. Cheng saw each other on the mainland, but I know that they hadn't seen each other since 1949. Yet, Li remembered Prof. Cheng as being highly skilled in the 1940's, even after 25 years of separation!

(The Chinese text of Li's book can be purchased from Plum Publications at: http://www.plumpub.com/sales/lionbks/lb_liyaxuan.htm


Regarding Yang family comments on Cheng Man-ch'ing, Fu Zhongwen stated in an interview published in Inside Kung-fu, April 1993:

"Cheng Man-ch'ing is probably the most famous taijiquan teacher in America. I knew him when he came to Shanghai to study with my uncle Yang Cheng-fu. He was a very great artist. He was very interested in learning and practicing taiji tui shou (push hands), which he did quite heavily
with Yang Cheng-fu and all those around him who were the most skilled...Cheng Man- ch'ing was legitimate, and now it is important for his students and other North American practitioners to research where 'they first drank the water.' The traditional methods of the Yang family style must be preserved..."

The preceding excerpt from Fu Zhongwen's comments is most pertinent to the current discussion, but he went on to say that he felt that he saw differences in the way the short form and long forms were done.

Both Yang Zhenji and Yang Zhenduo have published books acknowledging Cheng Man- ch'ing and his relationship to their father.

In Yang Zhenduo's book "Yang Style Taijiquan" (English version), in Gu Liuxin's preface (page 8), he writes: "In the book A Manual of Taijiquan complied by Zheng Manqing in 1934 for Yang Chengfu, there were 104 photographs."

In his book "Yang Cheng Fu Shi Tai Ji Quan" (page 250) Yang Zhenji writes of his father's 1934 book: "This book was written by my father's disciple Cheng Man-ch'ing based on my father's words and demonstrations. That is a true fact."


To sum up the above, it seems that Prof. Cheng had at least been exposed to Yang's T'ai Chi under Liu Yung-ch'en as early as 1923 when he was in Peking. At some later time, perhaps as early as 1926, but definitely by 1930, Prof. Cheng began his practice of T'ai Chi in earnest within Yang Cheng-fu's circle of students and colleagues.

He finally became a "formal" disciple of Yang in 1932. With Yang's untimely death in 1936, Prof. Cheng's study of T'ai Chi under Master Yang ended. Also in 1936, after the death of his teacher, Prof. Cheng left Shanghai and moved to Nanking.

Therefore, it can be said with full confidence that from at least 1930 until 1936, a period of 7 years, Prof. Cheng was without any doubt studying Yang's T'ai Chi in Shanghai with Yang's senior students and colleagues as well as under the direction and in the presence of Yang Ch'eng-fu himself!


I sincerely hope this presents a somewhat fuller picture of Prof.Cheng's early involvement with Yang T'ai Chi.

In friendship,

Danny Emerick

p.s. Sorry for the long post, but I thought this topic needed as much info as could be gathered.




[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 08-27-2007).]
Danny
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:01 am
Location: Tallahassee, Florida

Postby Bob Ashmore » Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:04 pm

Danny,
Very good research.
I, for one, have never doubted that CMC was a disiple of Yang Cheng Fu, but I know there are those who do.

Would you be able to give us a translation of the names on this page:
http://www.yongniantaiji.com/contents/newpage2.htm

I am unable to translate the names on the list, as I am completely unable to read Chinese.
I have, however, always wondered if there was a complete list of YCF's disciples available.
Bob Ashmore
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
Location: Frankfort, KY, USA

Postby shugdenla » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:11 pm

Danny,

Excellent work!
I wish all would scrutinize stuff like you do to gain the truth about a thing!

As I said in a previous post perception and reality are usually at opposite ends in these circle because even the Yang side tends to downplay Fu Zhongwen and Zhao Bin's Yang style (Yang relatives) while still espousing all Yang style is the same.

My perception may be off key but that is my fault for seeing that!
The best strategy is for all to enjoy their art to the fullest and live it to the best extent possible.
shugdenla
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:01 am
Location: USA

Postby Louis Swaim » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:22 pm

Greetings Danny,

You’ve done a thorough job of gathering the pertinent evidence. I don’t think there’s any question that Zheng Manqing was an acknowledged disciple of Yang Chengfu; Yang Zhenji stated that was the case, and Cui Yishi’s list of dizi corroborates it.

I would quibble just a bit with the notion that Dr. Hsieh’s reader check of Mr. Hennessey’s translation manuscript could make it error-free or faithfully accurate. I think that would be overstating the case, as translators (and readers) inevitably make subjective judgments about how to interpret and render source language into target language.

The notion of “indoor,” “entering the door,” etc. is a well-known trope for student-teacher relationships. Another example of the trope is evidenced in the allusion to Zhuangzi’s “Autumn Floods” in the “Closing Form” section of _Taijiquan tiyong quanshu_. The allusion is to the river god’s remark to Ruo: “If I hadn’t come to your gate, I would have been in danger. I would forever have been laughed at by the masters of the Great Method!” Here, “gate,” is also the character “men,” and it refers to the river god becoming Ruo’s student or disciple.

The phrase Zheng used in his Foreword, “zhi zhui yu men,” however, is somewhat arcane, and I’m not confident that it can conclusively be rendered, “accepting me as a disciple.” For that matter, I can’t guarantee that my rendering, “I humbly presented myself at Master Yang’s door,” is definitive, but I feel that it captures Zheng’s tone regarding the commencement of a particular teacher-student relationship. Others can weigh in on that; it’s just one example of a translator’s subjective judgment at work.

Take care,
Louis
Louis Swaim
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
Location: Oakland, CA

Postby Simon Batten » Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:48 am

Thanks, Danny for this exhaustive research which I think presents the position most fairly. I'm sure I read somewhere that CMC claimed to have been a student of YCF for 10 years and that has been disputed by some scholars. In a sense, your research vindicates both positions, in that it would certainly appear now that Cheng was a bona fide student of CMC for seven years according to the documentary evidence and I suppose on the basis of that it is by no means impossible that the documentary evidence doesn't present the whole story and that CMC's ten year claim might well therefore be true. I find Fu Zhongwen's comments to be the 'clincher' as far as I am concerned, though of course it's interesting to note that he suggests that students of CMC's style would be repaid the effort of investigating the original roots of their style. Interestingly, Da Liu, who taught a very similar style of T'ai Chi to CMC's, with very similar postures but a few more forms, always said that 'serious students' as he put it, should go on to learn the long form after mastering Da Liu's own shortened version. I find Da Liu's books excellent, by the way - particularly his 'T'ai Chi Ch'uan and I Ching' and 'T'ai Chi Ch'uan and Meditation'. Like CMC, Da Liu taught in the U.S. for many years. Kind regards, Simon.
Simon Batten
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:01 am
Location: Brighton, East Sussex, England

Postby JerryKarin » Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:11 am

Yes, nice job compiling the evidence. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing him on some other lists too... I'm too lazy to find it now but on this board somewhere Yang Jun refers to CMC as one of the group of Yang Chengfu's most important students.
JerryKarin
 
Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 7:01 am

Postby Danny » Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
<B>Danny,
Very good research.
I, for one, have never doubted that CMC was a disiple of Yang Cheng Fu, but I know there are those who do.

Would you be able to give us a translation of the names on this page:
http://www.yongniantaiji.com/contents/newpage2.htm

I am unable to translate the names on the list, as I am completely unable to read Chinese.
I have, however, always wondered if there was a complete list of YCF's disciples available. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hello Bob,

Thanks for the kind words...

The names on this list are in simplified characters...I'm an old geezer and I only studied the traditional characters so I'm guessing at some, but I'll give it a shot!

And, I'm still partial to the Wade-Giles transliteration, but I'll also throw in the pinyin where the names would perhaps be more recognizable...


1. Ch'en Yueh-po
2. Yen Chung-k'uei (Yueh-ch'uan)
3. Lung Chih-hsueh

4. Ts'ui Li-chih (Yi-shih) (aka Cui Yishi in pinyin)
5. Wang Hsu-tung
6. Niu Ch'un-ming (Ching-hsuan) (aka Niu Chunming in pinyin)

7. Li Ch'un-nian (Ya-hsuan) (aka Li Chunnian or Li Yaxuan in pinyin)
8. Wang Ching-hsing
9. Chang Ch'ing-lin

10. Kuo Tze-jung
11. Ch'en Wei-ming (Sheng Hsien)
12. Chiang T'ing-hsuan

13. Liu Tung-han
14. Chang Ch'ing-lin (second character "Ch'ing" is different than in #9)
15. Fu Chung-wen (aka Fu Zhongwen in pinyin)

16. Wu Hui-ch'uan
17. T'ien Chao-lin (aka Tian Zhaolin in pinyin)
18. Tung Ying-chieh (aka Dong Yingjie in pinyin)

19. Chu Kuei-t'ing
20. Cheng Man-ch'ing
21. Tseng Ju-pai (author of "Primordial Pugilism")


This list of the disciples of Yang Ch'eng-fu comes from the Cui Yishi family (see #4) website http://www.yongniantaiji.com/

However, there is a more complete list in Yang Ch'eng-fu's 1931 text, "T'ai Chi Ch'uan Shih Yung Fa"...Perhaps Louis would be so kind as to give us the 42 names listed there!

Danny



[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 08-29-2007).]
Danny
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:01 am
Location: Tallahassee, Florida

Postby Danny » Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:26 pm

I also want to say "thanks" to Shugdenla, Louis, Simon and Jerry for the kind words...

As you might have figured out, I am indeed a card carrying member of the CMC "cult", and have been for 30 years!...

I was introduced to Prof. Cheng's T'ai Chi when I met Mr. Robert W. Smith in the mid 1970's, and became a serious student of the art under Mr. Smith in 1979.

In 1981 I had the good fortune to live in Taipei for a little over 3 years and study with Mr. Liu Hsi-heng, a senior student of Prof. Cheng. (Both Mr. Smith in "Martial Musings", and Wolfe Lowenthal in his trilogy on Prof. Cheng have included material about Mr. Liu).

During the last 15 years or so there has been waaay too much mis-information regarding CMC disseminated via the internet...I just hope this sheds a little light on the facts of Prof. Cheng's time with Yang Ch'eng-fu, and on his relationship with his senior classmates.

Thanks again,

Danny Emerick

[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 08-29-2007).]
Danny
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:01 am
Location: Tallahassee, Florida

Postby yslim » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:55 pm

Hi Danny

You do good work!

As for the name of #9 and #14's is same
Chang Ch'ing-lin

May I suggest the second word of #9 change to
'Qing'(pinyin) as Chang Qing-lin base on the fact that there is a well know Taiji master and teacher have his own school in the Chen Village name Chen Qing Zhou of China. The second word of his name 'Qing' is the same word as the second word of #9 in the identical Chinese character but is different with #14

What do you think?
It should make Bob happier to learn those crazy Chinese character.....me

Ciao,
yslim



<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Danny:
<B>
Hello Bob,

Thanks for the kind words...

The names on this list are in simplified characters...I'm an old geezer and I only studied the traditional characters so I'm guessing at some, but I'll give it a shot!

And, I'm still partial to the Wade-Giles transliteration, but I'll also throw in the pinyin where the names would perhaps be more recognizable...


1. Ch'en Yueh-po
2. Yen Chung-k'uei (Yueh-ch'uan)
3. Lung Chih-hsueh

4. Ts'ui Li-chih (Yi-shih) (aka Cui Yishi in pinyin)
5. Wang Hsu-tung
6. Niu Ch'un-ming (Ching-hsuan) (aka Niu Chunming in pinyin)

7. Li Ch'un-nian (Ya-hsuan) (aka Li Chunnian or Li Yaxuan in pinyin)
8. Wang Ching-hsing
9. Chang Ch'ing-lin

10. Kuo Tze-jung
11. Ch'en Wei-ming (Sheng Hsien)
12. Chiang T'ing-hsuan

13. Liu Tung-han
14. Chang Ch'ing-lin (second character "Ch'ing" is different than in #9)
15. Fu Chung-wen (aka Fu Zhongwen in pinyin)

16. Wu Hui-ch'uan
17. T'ien Chao-lin (aka Tian Zhaolin in pinyin)
18. Tung Ying-chieh (aka Dong Yingjie in pinyin)

19. Chu Kuei-t'ing
20. Cheng Man-ch'ing
21. Tseng Ju-pai (author of "Primordial Pugilism")


This list of the disciples of Yang Ch'eng-fu comes from the Cui Yishi family (see #4) website http://www.yongniantaiji.com/

However, there is a more complete list in Yang Ch'eng-fu's 1931 text, "T'ai Chi Ch'uan Shih Yung Fa"...Perhaps Louis would be so kind as to give us the 42 names listed there!

Danny

[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 08-29-2007).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
yslim
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 6:01 am
Location: Monterey,Ca. USA

Postby Danny » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by yslim:
<B>Hi Danny

You do good work!

As for the name of #9 and #14's is same
Chang Ch'ing-lin

May I suggest the second word of #9 change to
'Qing'(pinyin) as Chang Qing-lin base on the fact that there is a well know Taiji master and teacher have his own school in the Chen Village name Chen Qing Zhou of China. The second word of his name 'Qing' is the same word as the second word of #9 in the identical Chinese character but is different with #14

What do you think?
It should make Bob happier to learn those crazy Chinese character.....me

Ciao,
yslim



</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello yslim!

Thanks for the kind thoughts!

Actually, I believe the duplicate names in #9 and #14 are in error. In the 1931 text there is only ONE Chang Ch'ing-lin listed.

And, also curiously, there are a few other names in the list from the Cui family that are not in the 1931 text of Yang Ch'eng-fu! (Besides, of course, CMC and Tseng Ju-pai who came after the 1931 list was published)

If you or anyone else (ahem....Louis?) have any thoughts on the discrepancies in the names on the two lists I sincerely would like to hear your ideas!

As for Bob, it is NEVER too late to learn Chinese!...Indeed, it seems that all us "wai kuo jen" (aka waiguoren) who study T'ai Chi learn to "ch'ih k'u" a lot quicker by taking up the language rather than by practicing the art!!!

Take care,

Danny



[This message has been edited by Danny (edited 08-29-2007).]
Danny
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:01 am
Location: Tallahassee, Florida

Postby Louis Swaim » Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:09 am

Greetings Danny,

The lists are different because they have to do with different categories. The Cui list is a list of disciples (dizi), while the chart in Yang's Shiyongfa book is a transmission list; it includes important early students in the transmission, but not necessarily disciples. It also breaks it down as students in "teacher Chengfu's transmission," those in "Tian Zhaolin's tranmission," and those in "Dong Yingjie's transmission."

I'll translate the lists when I have a chance.

Take care,
Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 08-30-2007).]
Louis Swaim
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
Location: Oakland, CA

Postby Bob Ashmore » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:33 pm

Hello everyone,
Sincere thanks for translating the list.
I have been out for a couple of days due to a car wreck but I will be back in the swing of things shortly.

This is a good starting point for the list of Yang Cheng Fu's disciples. It is certainly more than I knew before.

As for learning Chinese...
I can barely speak, read or write English and I've been exposed to it my whole life.
I'll think about learning some chinese, but as for becoming proficient at it...
I'd say the chances are pretty darned slim based on my past experiences with language.

Bob
Bob Ashmore
 
Posts: 596
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
Location: Frankfort, KY, USA

Postby Danny » Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
<B>Greetings Danny,

The lists are different because they have to do with different categories. The Cui list is a list of disciples (dizi), while the chart in Yang's Shiyongfa book is a transmission list; it includes important early students in the transmission, but not necessarily disciples.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hello Louis,

Thanks for taking the time to weigh in on this...

I understand that the 1931 transmission list may also include "non-dizi" of Yang Ch'eng-fu, but I would think that the transmission list would also, by definition, include the dizi! Why wouldn't all the disciples be included?

I had never compared the two lists until this discussion began, and I was somewhat surprised to see some names in the Cui list of Yang Ch'eng-fu's disciples that were NOT also included in the 1931 list! Unless of course the "courtesy name" (piao tzu) was used in one of the lists.


Many thanks!

Danny
Danny
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:01 am
Location: Tallahassee, Florida

Postby Louis Swaim » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:36 pm

Greetings Danny,

I'm just speculating, but it may be that dizi would be less public than a transmission list, so would not be as subject to publication. Also, to state the obvious, lists reflect the knowledge and diligence of the list makers, so one shouldn't be too surprised by discrepancies among lists.

Take care,
Louis
Louis Swaim
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
Location: Oakland, CA

Postby Danny » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
<B>Also, to state the obvious, lists reflect the knowledge and diligence of the list makers, so one shouldn't be too surprised by discrepancies among lists.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How very true!

That is probably the explanation!


Thanks!

Danny
Danny
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:01 am
Location: Tallahassee, Florida

Next

Return to Tai Chi Chuan - Barehand Form

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 0 guests

cron